Revision to Tripoli Rule Regarding Wireless Remote Switches

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Steve Shannon

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NO - Don't be silly.
YOU DO NOT need a fancy G-rated switch.
I've addressed this before - read the thread.
That’s true, it doesn’t need to be g-rated, but it does need to be able to withstand gee forces without opening the contacts.
The Switchcraft switches you buy at surplus may not have a gee rating on their data sheet but Switchcraft switches are very high quality switches that have been used frequently in government electronics. I would feel very comfortable with them.
On the other hand I’ve personally seen Radio Shack switches fail. Many people used to use the push on-push off switch with the 3/8 inch red button. I watched as my buddy Dale launched a dual deploy rocket at RocLake. As I recall, it came down under chute, but when he retrieved it it wasn’t beeping the altitude. He opened the avbay and the switch had come apart. He never trusted those switches again.
So selecting the right switches is important.
 

Rocketjunkie

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I went through the entire thread and I saw it mentioned only once.
There is a BIG difference between accidentally firing an ejection charge and lighting a motor.

No armed altimeters at the RSO, once past then can arm deployment altimeters and rely on the solid state switch. Do not arm motor starters until the rocket is vertical on the pad.
Personally, for general sport flying I use twist and tape, armed on the pad with the rocket vertical. Before arming the wires are taped down so they can't move and short together. For high performance rockets I use screw switches with buggered threads to prevent vibration activation.
 

Banzai88

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........ read the thread.
The ENTIRE trouble with this thread is that it's 5 good posts of information and the rest is tooth and claw infighting. Finding those 5 good posts in now 37 pages of BS is all but impossible to someone not following it every.single.post to date, which is what......10 or 12 of you all that have a personal stake in it?

What WOULD be useful would be a summation in another thread.
 

John Kemker

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The ENTIRE trouble with this thread is that it's 5 good posts of information and the rest is tooth and claw infighting. Finding those 5 good posts in now 37 pages of BS is all but impossible to someone not following it every.single.post to date, which is what......10 or 12 of you all that have a personal stake in it?

What WOULD be useful would be a summation in another thread.
Make it so. [grin]
 

Steve Shannon

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I’m not going to start another thread, but here’s a summary that combines the simplicity of the NAR announcement and the intent of the Tripoli announcement:


Wireless or magnetic non-contact switches shall be backed up with physical breaks in either the power or energetic circuits whenever the rocket is being transported, handled, or inspected.
 

John Kemker

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I’m not going to start another thread, but here’s a summary that combines the simplicity of the NAR announcement and the intent of the Tripoli announcement:


Wireless or magnetic non-contact switches shall be backed up with physical breaks in either the power or energetic circuits whenever the rocket is being transported, handled, or inspected.
Wasn't asking you to, Steve. Was suggesting that Tom, having seen the solution, make the solution happen.

Tom, not trying to be a smart-aleck or anything, just recognizing that you've both identified a problem and come up with a solution. You are as empowered as the rest of us to execute the solution. I commend you for it.
 

cerving

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I’m not going to start another thread, but here’s a summary that combines the simplicity of the NAR announcement and the intent of the Tripoli announcement:


Wireless or magnetic non-contact switches shall be backed up with physical breaks in either the power or energetic circuits whenever the rocket is being transported, handled, or inspected.
It's a shame that the simplified version wasn't the one that was in Post #1... it probably would have saved about 36 pages of this thread. :)
 

Banzai88

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Wasn't asking you to, Steve. Was suggesting that Tom, having seen the solution, make the solution happen.

Tom, not trying to be a smart-aleck or anything, just recognizing that you've both identified a problem and come up with a solution. You are as empowered as the rest of us to execute the solution. I commend you for it.
Thus, in my own way, I have ensured that a suitable solution to the massive thread of BS has been summarized!

.......... here’s a summary that combines the simplicity of the NAR announcement and the intent of the Tripoli announcement:


Wireless or magnetic non-contact switches shall be backed up with physical breaks in either the power or energetic circuits whenever the rocket is being transported, handled, or inspected.
 

ksaves2

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I’m not going to start another thread, but here’s a summary that combines the simplicity of the NAR announcement and the intent of the Tripoli announcement:


Wireless or magnetic non-contact switches shall be backed up with physical breaks in either the power or energetic circuits whenever the rocket is being transported, handled, or inspected.
The only thing I would request is for an area where one can safely reconnect the battery for those who use mag switches or wireless after RSO approval and don't have room in a small MD rocket to install a switch.
There are those that say once RSO approval has been given, one must go directly to the pad. The fact of the matter is at a major launch I've attended, people were milling around in line waiting for pads after RSO approval and could very easily go back to where they're parked and do whatever they want. I've checked rockets in and remembered I needed something from my locked vehicle and walked back. Got back in the pad line and flew.

Physical break from the battery? Fair enough. Must go directly to the pad after RSO approval, O.K. but provide a safe place for one to connect the battery to their deployment device otherwise a whole class of MD rockets will not be flyable
at a major launch.

I'm not talking about staging here. If I did staging, I'd have a physical switch on the electronic device that controls the igniter of the sustainer period. Wouldn't matter to me if the device was wireless or not. If it controls motor ignition there needs to be a physical break.

I personally mock up my electronics in advance before every flight. That means in the comfort of my own shop putting contained ematches on the outputs and cycle the electronics with whatever switch (system) I'm using to be certain it performs nominally. Doing that a few days or night before a planned launch will eliminate a defective device that will set off the outputs when power is applied. There have been stories posted here where a flier has had a drogue only deployment and the rocket took a hard hit on landing. Didn't test the electronics before the next launch and when he turned on the deployment altimeter, both outputs fired. That is a rare worst case scenario that would be eliminated by a test simulation as described.
It would also eliminate a device that "mysteriously" went defective. (Whatever that is.)

Making fliers resort to "twist and tape" in a small MD rocket is opening a can of worms because there have been very heated threads here on this very topic. The scenario is the flier twists, tapes and stuffs the connection through the hole back inside the rocket. If one of the charges fails to "fire" many people soil their pants arguing the rocket has a "live charge" in it with no easy way to cut power. I respectfully am not trolling here but merely pointing out the existence of differing opinions.

Kurt
 

Nytrunner

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The only thing I would request is for an area where one can safely reconnect the battery for those who use mag switches or wireless after RSO approval and don't have room in a small MD rocket to install a switch.
Our Tripoli prefect relayed a message that the TRA direction to clubs is a power connection/mechanical switch activation table/area be provided past the spectators where post-RSO wireless fliers will take their rockets to make the mechanical connection (swith/other) before going to the pads
 

Steve Shannon

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Our Tripoli prefect relayed a message that the TRA direction to clubs is a power connection/mechanical switch activation table/area be provided past the spectators where post-RSO wireless fliers will take their rockets to make the mechanical connection (swith/other) before going to the pads
That’s the first that I’ve heard that someone actually read my message to the Prefects.
Thanks!
 

dan__olson

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I think that I have read this entire thread and I don't believe that this question has been asked and answered, if it has I apologize, but on my L3 attempt rocket I have an Eggtimer TRS and a Raven 3. The way that I have it wired is that I have physical disconnects (screw switches) on the outputs of the TRS and screw switches on the power to both the Raven and TRS. So 4 total screw switches if I am being clear. My interpretation of this is that I could come up to the RSO table with the TRS on and getting GPS data, but it's outputs would be totally dead because their screw switches were off (the Raven as well obviously) Am I interpreting things correctly, or do I have 2 screw switches in my chain that are essentially failure points and not necessary because I am not going to be able to bring the rocket to the RSO table with the TRS on but it's outputs inhibited by mechanical disconnects?
 

Steve Shannon

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I think that I have read this entire thread and I don't believe that this question has been asked and answered, if it has I apologize, but on my L3 attempt rocket I have an Eggtimer TRS and a Raven 3. The way that I have it wired is that I have physical disconnects (screw switches) on the outputs of the TRS and screw switches on the power to both the Raven and TRS. So 4 total screw switches if I am being clear. My interpretation of this is that I could come up to the RSO table with the TRS on and getting GPS data, but it's outputs would be totally dead because their screw switches were off (the Raven as well obviously) Am I interpreting things correctly, or do I have 2 screw switches in my chain that are essentially failure points and not necessary because I am not going to be able to bring the rocket to the RSO table with the TRS on but it's outputs inhibited by mechanical disconnects?
You have extra switches that are not necessary. The switches on the power are sufficient.
 

dan__olson

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But what I am getting at is that I want the TRS on and getting it's GPS data (with the outputs inhibited) so that I don't have to go out to the pad and turn it on and wait for it to get GPS lock and hold everyone else up. Right or wrong I feel like I am in compliance, and I'm just trying to look out for everyone else so I'm not that guy out there holding everyone else up. The TRS is a somewhat unique animal... if I have to go to the RSO table with it dead then so be it and I have no problem, but this was my solution and I thought I'd better ask the question
 

cerving

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You have extra switches that are not necessary. The switches on the power are sufficient.
Actually, he was being compliant because he had the power on the TRS turned on so he could arm it remotely. Disconnecting the pyro power is an appropriate way to physically disconnect the energetics. It's actually the power switch that he didn't need.
 

g.pitts

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Actually, he was being compliant because he had the power on the TRS turned on so he could arm it remotely. Disconnecting the pyro power is an appropriate way to physically disconnect the energetics. It's actually the power switch that he didn't need.
I also read that to be a valid and acceptable implementation, and I am planning to do the same for my electronics bay design - powering-on the altimeters, but breaking the power connection to the charges with switches.
 

Steve Shannon

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Actually, he was being compliant because he had the power on the TRS turned on so he could arm it remotely. Disconnecting the pyro power is an appropriate way to physically disconnect the energetics. It's actually the power switch that he didn't need.
I also read that to be a valid and acceptable implementation, and I am planning to do the same for my electronics bay design - powering-on the altimeters, but breaking the power connection to the charges with switches.
I agree.
 

dan__olson

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So is that a yes answer to my question of having the TRS powered up but outputs disconnected, or is everyone gonna freak out if I bring a rocket that's beeping to the RSO table?
 

Steve Shannon

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So is that a yes answer to my question of having the TRS powered up but outputs disconnected, or is everyone gonna freak out if I bring a rocket that's beeping to the RSO table?
It’s a yes answer, but be prepared to explain to them that your energetic are disconnected.

But if the launch organizers provide a table for turning on electronics after inspections, why wouldn’t you turn on the power switch there instead; then there’s no question.
 
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