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Bat-mite

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It means "non-commercial, non-certified," which usually means you made it yourself. :wink:
 

dhbarr

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Importantly, it includes modifications to existing motors.
 

DavidMcCann

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Importantly, it includes modifications to existing motors.
It's covered under it, but there's really not much "research" going on there. More that it's allowed under the research rules, But taking a delay out of a commercial motor doesn't make it research.


Research or EX most typically refers to mixing your own propellant, designing your own grains, etc.
 

Dave A

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I have flown 2 AT M- reloads in a snap ring case using the CTI hubcap. I just finished modifying the parts to burn an AT K805G in a Por54 case. Why? More available reloads because I have no AT cases. What are they? Considered EX because they are not certified.
 

DavidMcCann

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True. I peeled the sticker off a G80-7 T once. Thank god the EX rules let me fly it.
 

Dave A

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I left the label on the liner for the M motors, you can't see the label anyway. But yes I hade some 29 SU use that had to remove the labels but that was 12 years ago.
 

jimzcatz

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I have flown 2 AT M- reloads in a snap ring case using the CTI hubcap. I just finished modifying the parts to burn an AT K805G in a Por54 case. Why? More available reloads because I have no AT cases. What are they? Considered EX because they are not certified.
Same here, L900, L1040. Only parts you have to supply is the pro75 noozle carrier and a #226 oring for the internal noozle carrier groove. I used a 4 grain snap ring case.
 

Dave A

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Same here, L900, L1040. Only parts you have to supply is the pro75 noozle carrier and a #226 oring for the internal noozle carrier groove. I used a 4 grain snap ring case.
-The AT M-1297 went right in a 4800n (copy of a Loki ex case).
-The Loki M1650 cocktail went right in the Kosdon 6400n case with 1 CTI spacer
-The AT M-1850 went in the Loki 8000n (6 grain case) but I like to also put a nozzle washer just under the fwd-end snap ring. It would barely take 1 spacer. I cut 3/4" off a CTI spacer for that one, flew like a champ.
The is the most economical 6 grain commercial load out there for the money ($ per Newton)
Huge flame out of that one. Left a huge column of smoke from the pad to Apogee and just hung there.

[video]https://www.facebook.com/bill.alewine.50/videos/10207841074560587/[/video]
 
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dave carver

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I was at a Research launch where 2 K550 AT reloads were made into 1 L1100...a 2 inch L...fun :)
 

smapdiage9

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I've been flying CTI 75mm in AG71 snap ring cases with a hubcap forever, works great. Research rules because it's not technically commercial hardware even though it is functionally identical. From Ls up to an M2245: [video=youtube;5tPp6iaGyK4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tPp6iaGyK4[/video]
 

jimzcatz

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I've been flying CTI 75mm in AG71 snap ring cases with a hubcap forever, works great. Research rules because it's not technically commercial hardware even though it is functionally identical. From Ls up to an M2245: [video=youtube;5tPp6iaGyK4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tPp6iaGyK4[/video]
Pro75 loads in snap ring cases are certified. CTI had the Hubcap adapter tested when brought to market. I fly these at commercial launches all the time.
 

Dave A

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Jim is correct. Pro75 loads are certified to be used in AMW hardware.
Tripoli came to an agreement that other case are compatible like Kosdon, Gorilla and some Loki.
If it's a Pro75 load regardless unless the fwd is identical to AMW's it's not the system that was certified.
Nozzle not needed because the disposable one comes in the Pro75 reload.
If flying other bands of reloads, i.e. a Loki reload, then using other certified cases is ok but you are supposed to use the corresponding Loki closures if you want to declare the whole motor "certified"

To Jim and I , it does not matter on what pieces we use if under research rules at the launch.
I have a variety of 75mm AMW, Kosdon, Loki forward closures that all will work.
See attachment.Gorilla-Loki-AMW HDW Compatibilty_Page_4.jpgGorilla-Loki-AMW HDW Compatibilty_Page_1.jpgGorilla-Loki-AMW HDW Compatibilty_Page_2.jpgGorilla-Loki-AMW HDW Compatibilty_Page_3.jpg

http://www.pro38.com/pdfs/AMWPro75_Adapter_Instructions.pdf
 
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smapdiage9

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Pro75 loads in snap ring cases are certified. CTI had the Hubcap adapter tested when brought to market. I fly these at commercial launches all the time.
Certified in commercial snap ring cases like Gorilla was how I read it. If you clone the hardware on a lathe is it still certified? If I build my own aerotech hardware and fly commercial reloads is it certified? My understanding was no, thus the post.
 

Dave A

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Certified in commercial snap ring cases like Gorilla was how I read it. If you clone the hardware on a lathe is it still certified? If I build my own aerotech hardware and fly commercial reloads is it certified? My understanding was no, thus the post.
If you clone hardware of a commercial brand however so precisely, it would still need certifying.
The issue is a combination of hdw and reload has to be certified together.
The only reason the Gorilla, AMW & some Loki hardware were agreed upon was because there was documentation that their specs were nearly identical.
As I understand a "cooperative" certification is when the reload manufacturer willfully participates.

The approved 75mm line I know of:
-Pro75 reloads in most snap-ring hdw.
-Pro75 reloads in AT RMS hdw
-AT reloads in Pro75 hdw
-Obviously combos that involve the same manufacturer of the reload and the hdw.
 

smapdiage9

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That's how I understand it too. Since my cases are not commercial, research rules it is.
 

bobkrech

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If you clone hardware of a commercial brand however so precisely, it would still need certifying.
The issue is a combination of hdw and reload has to be certified together.
The only reason the Gorilla, AMW & some Loki hardware were agreed upon was because there was documentation that their specs were nearly identical.
As I understand a "cooperative" certification is when the reload manufacturer willfully participates.

The approved 75mm line I know of:
-Pro75 reloads in most snap-ring hdw.
-Pro75 reloads in AT RMS hdw
-AT reloads in Pro75 hdw
-Obviously combos that involve the same manufacturer of the reload and the hdw.
If you make your own hardware and use a commercial reload in it, the combination is a research motor.

http://www.nar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/CasingCrossCert.doc.pdf is the combined NAR/TRA/CAR list of certified cross-compatibility cases and reloads.

There are 2 types of cross-compatibility: cooperative and non-cooperative.

Cooperative compatibility is when both the reload manufacturer and the casing manufacture agree that certain reload/casings combination are ok.

Non-cooperative compatibility is when there is no agreement, the reload manufacturer submits their reloads in another manufacturer's casings to one of the certifying authorities for certification testing.
 
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