Report a Malfunctioning Engine

[bobkrech]

Malfunctioning Engine Statistical Survey (MESS) has a new home https://www.motorcato.org/

The Malfunctioning Engine Statistical Survey (MESS) is a joint organization program that allows NAR Standards & Testing, Tripoli Motor Testing and the CAR Motor Certification Committee to track field trends in the reliability of sport rocket motors. Please use this new website https://www.motorcato.org/ to report all Malfunctioning Engines and obtain the latest Manufacturer's Safety Notices.

Bob

 

[blackbrandt]

I find it interesting how this was posted 25 minutes ago and it has 2000+ views...

 

[Yoehahn]

I find it interesting how this was posted 25 minutes ago and it has 2000+ views...

Everyone flies motors, wether MMX or O. Its one of them hobby-wide things that almost (not including EX) everybody needs to /should know about.

 

[Johnly]

If you have suggestions for improving the motorcato.org website, please send them my way.

John

 

[rocketgeek101]

I get this message when I click on the link:

Ouch!

We're working on some issues, our site will be back online be end of day 10/9/2013. Thaanks for your patience.

What's up with that, Oct 9th was a few days ago? Anyway, I recently flew a motor that CATO'd. I hope it will back online soon so I can report it.

 

[bobkrech]

It's being fixed. The NAR website is being "fixed" but it appears that they broke something that was working.

Sorry about that.

Bob

 

[billspad]

I recently flew a motor that CATO'd. I hope it will back online soon so I can report it.

You can still use the MESS form on the NAR website.

 

[Johnly]

The motorcato.org website issue has been corrected.

John

 

[Kirk G]

I find this an interesting topic, and one that I NEVER concidered before buying a lot of unused, unopened low power sport rocket engines off a closing hobby shop.
How do I find out if any of the 17 packages that I have bought as one large lot, are part of a recall?
Is there a master list or website that I should be checking? Or is the concern solely for higher power engines and the more advanced end of the hobby?

 

[shreadvector]

Model Rocket Motors are very rearely "recalled".

There have been a few that were decertified and those notices are listed in the "chronological list of motor certification announcements issued by NAR Standards & Testing" section of the NAR website.

https://www.nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html

I know that the very old Estes E15 motors are highly suspect as are any C5-3 motors made with a manufacturing year code of "X".

All other small motors are fine for decades and decades and decades of storage at normal temperatures. I just bought over a thousand motors from a large distributor who had a very old oversupply of Estes mini motor bulk packs. I knew they would be fine and I flew an assortment from the 4 different date codes that I noted in the large purchase and they all worked great.

We often have folks show up at club launches with Estes motors from the late 1970's and they work fine.

For Estes motors to fail, they need to have a manufacturing defect (built in since they were made - which is very rare) or they need to be exposed to severe temperature cycling which affects the ability of the cardboard casing to "hold onto" the propellant grain formed inside when the motor was made. And then you typically need to fire the motor 75F colder than the top temperature that it ever experienced. And even then, not all motors will fail - usually that is worse for the larger sized motors and not for the small motors.

See explanation below at bottom of my signature.

I find this an interesting topic, and one that I NEVER concidered before buying a lot of unused, unopened low power sport rocket engines off a closing hobby shop.
How do I find out if any of the 17 packages that I have bought as one large lot, are part of a recall?
Is there a master list or website that I should be checking? Or is the concern solely for higher power engines and the more advanced end of the hobby?

 

[himitsu]

For Estes motors to fail, they need to have a manufacturing defect (built in since they were made - which is very rare) or they need to be exposed to severe temperature cycling which affects the ability of the cardboard casing to "hold onto" the propellant grain formed inside when the motor was made. And then you typically need to fire the motor 75F colder than the top temperature that it ever experienced. And even then, not all motors will fail - usually that is worse for the larger sized motors and not for the small motors.

I thought that you could also damage a BP motor by dropping it, or is that a misconception on my part? As a child, I remember "destroying" (by soaking them in water) Estes engines if I detected lose propellant in the package. Was I being overly cautious? (I never did experience a CATO.)

 

[shreadvector]

Dropping them does nothing (OK, the most that can happen is that part of the clay cap on the delay might get dislodged). Proven by scientific method in several R&D reports. You must hit them HARD with a hammer to crack the grain.


And it is "cato" and not "CATO".

It has never been an acronym, it has always been shorthand slang. See my signature for explanation of the term.

I thought that you could also damage a BP motor by dropping it, or is that a misconception on my part? As a child, I remember "destroying" (by soaking them in water) Estes engines if I detected lose propellant in the package. Was I being overly cautious? (I never did experience a CATO.)

 

[himitsu]

Dropping them does nothing (OK, the most that can happen is that part of the clay cap on the delay might get dislodged). Proven by scientific method in several R&D reports. You must hit them HARD with a hammer to crack the grain.


And it is "cato" and not "CATO".

It has never been an acronym, it has always been shorthand slang. See my signature for explanation of the term.

Ah, then that was probably broken clay I saw in the package, and not propellant. Thanks for dispelling TWO of my misconceptions!

 

[Rktman]

Is the MESS report only for HPR-sized engines or does it cover A through D sized engines as well?

 

[rstaff3]

all of them

 

[Steve Shannon]

And for a wide range of problems, not just catos. If you find a problem with the instructions or if you receive a motor that has quality control problems, we need to know those kind of things also.
The other day someone told me he only turns in MESS reports when he doesn’t receive satisfactory customer service. That’s exactly the wrong attitude. MESS reports are for the benefit of all flyers, not a means of exacting revenge.


Steve Shannon

 

[Rktman]

all of them

And for a wide range of problems, not just catos. If you find a problem with the instructions or if you receive a motor that has quality control problems, we need to know those kind of things also.
The other day someone told me he only turns in MESS reports when he doesn’t receive satisfactory customer service. That’s exactly the wrong attitude. MESS reports are for the benefit of all flyers, not a means of exacting revenge.


Steve Shannon

Thanks for clarifying. I've had abysmal luck with the mini motors (e.g. 1/2A3-2T and A10-3T) exploding and destroying my small glider engine pods 3 times in two consecutive launchings. Not very good odds.

 

[Andy Greene]

Not to beat a dead horse into the ground regarding Estes E9 / E12 catos - But rereading this thread and the current E12-0's thread , it got me wondering a few things ?
1) Is there a list somewhere of the accumulated mess reports that can be viewed ?
2) It appears this mess list has been gathering data since at least 2013- does it go back further than that- record wise ?
3) At what point does it become more cost effective for Estes to actually DO something about known issues, rather than keep replacing kits and motors ?

Dont get me wrong , I have had 3 E9 failures in the last 5 or 6 years (see avatar pic) and Estes has more than made them right. Heck one was a scratch built , not even their kit - and they gave me a rocket of choice plus replacement motors I like the ease and cost of the E9 and have several rockets that fly really well on them, but not enough to risk another bird. Shame really.

 

[ALPHAROCKETGUY]

I have been out of the sport for 40 years, just found my old motor stash of FSI F-100 motors and some Enerjet. Do you think they will work after 40 years in storage?

 

[dhbarr]

What kind of storage? That's the key, old barn? Guest room closet?

 

[Steve Shannon]

Not to beat a dead horse into the ground regarding Estes E9 / E12 catos - But rereading this thread and the current E12-0's thread , it got me wondering a few things ?
1) Is there a list somewhere of the accumulated mess reports that can be viewed ?
2) It appears this mess list has been gathering data since at least 2013- does it go back further than that- record wise ?
3) At what point does it become more cost effective for Estes to actually DO something about known issues, rather than keep replacing kits and motors ?

Dont get me wrong , I have had 3 E9 failures in the last 5 or 6 years (see avatar pic) and Estes has more than made them right. Heck one was a scratch built , not even their kit - and they gave me a rocket of choice plus replacement motors I like the ease and cost of the E9 and have several rockets that fly really well on them, but not enough to risk another bird. Shame really.

Andy,
All of the MESS submissions accumulate in a single database. Copies of that database are sent to the chairs of the three organizations’ motor testing committees.
The database is not available outside of that group. I think the reason for that is because it is very incomplete and inconsistent. For one thing, all it represents is the number of reported failures without saying anything about how many of each motor type has been sold. It may be difficult to draw a correct conclusion.
Although I’ve seen the data, I don’t remember how far back it goes.
As I recall, the anecdotal reports of E9 failures on TRF far outnumber those in the database.
We three organizations will be having a meeting in April. MESS Reports are on the agenda but I doubt we’ll come to a conclusion but we might be able to begin the discussion.
Steve

 

[Andy Greene]

Andy,
All of the MESS submissions accumulate in a single database. Copies of that database are sent to the chairs of the three organizations’ motor testing committees.
The database is not available outside of that group. I think the reason for that is because it is very incomplete and inconsistent. For one thing, all it represents is the number of reported failures without saying anything about how many of each motor type has been sold. It may be difficult to draw a correct conclusion.
Although I’ve seen the data, I don’t remember how far back it goes.
As I recall, the anecdotal reports of E9 failures on TRF far outnumber those in the database.
We three organizations will be having a meeting in April. MESS Reports are on the agenda but I doubt we’ll come to a conclusion but we might be able to begin the discussion.
Steve

That certainly is a long overdue start Steve , thank you for the reply .

 

[ALPHAROCKETGUY]

dhbarr
They were stored in a closet

 

[dhbarr]

dhbarr
They were stored in a closet

If I had 40yo FSI motors in a house closet, I wouldn't hesitate to put them back in the sky where they belong.

 

[ALPHAROCKETGUY]

They were the highest power I could get my hands on back then.

 

[SammyD]

Filling out the MESS report shortly, but had a CTI J-244-WT, date code November 23, 2018, burn through the liner in at least two places, damaging the motor casing with near burn-throughs and buldges, AND nearly burning a hole through the material that the nozzles is made of. Photos and descriptions can be seen in the attached PDF

 

[SammyD]

Well, the MESS doesn't seem to work... :-(

 

[cwbullet]

The site appears to be down.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I’m sorry about the MESS system. It was just supposed to be a simple change in DNS to get the new system up and going, but now it isn’t. I’ll put an announcement on Facebook also.

 

[Steve Shannon]

It’s working on the new system now. Be sure to use https://www.motorcato.org.
Thanks for your patience! Thank you John Coker and Greg Deputy!
Steve