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Renegade Crash

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lipp

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I tride my first staged flight yesterday. To no avail it went bad. Had good lift off, but when upper stage ignited it came apart and motor went one way renegade went the other. The question i got is what might i have done wrong and how should i fix the after effex of my renegade yard dart?????? any help would be great!!!!!!
 

sandman

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This might require an inquiry like when NASA has an accident.

First find a hangar or maybe a spare bedroom to lay out all the debri.
 

eugenefl

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Originally posted by lipp
I tride my first staged flight yesterday. To no avail it went bad. Had good lift off, but when upper stage ignited it came apart and motor went one way renegade went the other. The question i got is what might i have done wrong and how should i fix the after effex of my renegade yard dart?????? any help would be great!!!!!!
Is there any possibility the upperstage motor was inserted upside down? I know that sounds silly, but it has been done before even by veterans of the hobby.

Welcome to THE ROCKETRY FORUM!
 

lipp

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I'm quite sure it was in right but i was wandering if it was maybe too loose???? how tight should it fit in the upper stage?????
 

n3tjm

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Did the motor shoot through the rocket? Most likely you either forgot the thrust ring, or there was not enough glue holding it on.
 

MetMan

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Originally posted by lipp
I'm quite sure it was in right but i was wandering if it was maybe too loose????
That would be my first guess based on your description. How tight? Not to sound like a wise guy but tight enough not to come out in flight. It's sometimes a delicate balance between not too loose and not so tight you damage your rocket inserting the motor. Experiment a little with differing amounts of masking tape so you get it so it will fit snuggly but not too tight.

Also, are you going to send the motors (if you found it) or picture of the damage to Estes?

MetMan
 

lipp

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I didn't find the motor! it went off flying into the yond yonds. How would i send a pictures to ESTES???? Do you think they would do anything???? or just for a hey look what happened type reason........
 

shreadvector

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We do not have enough info to provide a definite cause of your problem.

Did the nose come off at staging? If the nose is too loose, it will fall off at staging and then when the upper stage motor ignites, it will fly unstable and the recovery system will be pulled out by the wind.

Did the upper stage motor malfunction? If it experienced a "blow-through". it would act like a roman candle at or just after it ignited - sending the flaming propellant up throught the rocket body and usually blowing the motor casing out the back. (Blow through creates a lot of force, so it often blows the casing out - even with a motor hook).

Did the motor simply fall out? You MUST apply masking tape around the motor casing if it is a "friction fit" (i.e. no hook). I usually apply the tape ONLY to the top portion of the casing that is not full/swollen with propellant - that way it does not shrink and get loose after burning it all up. I have the tape hang over the top edge and it rolls over to form a "gentle-glide applicator" smooth edge for easy insertion. ;) It whould not come out wiht out a good amount of pull. It is easier to get out after firing since it will be warm and it will still shrink a bit. I use plyers to remove them usually.

Originally posted by lipp
I tride my first staged flight yesterday. To no avail it went bad. Had good lift off, but when upper stage ignited it came apart and motor went one way renegade went the other. The question i got is what might i have done wrong and how should i fix the after effex of my renegade yard dart?????? any help would be great!!!!!!
 

lipp

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OK here's what happened. I connected the two motors together useing scotch tape. I inserted the upper motor to check how tight it was. it seemed snug but i still put one peice of tape around it anyway. I then inserted the motors into the upper stage and slid the bottum stage on( witch was pretty darn tight). I inserted the igniter and plug,put the rocket on the launch rod connected the lauch controler, and began countdown. we had what seemed to be a good launch.when the rocket twisted to the right a little. as the first stage burned out stage two ignited, thats when the trouble started. as the two seperated I noticed that the upper stage was no longer going up and at the same time I noticed the upper stage engine whirling off in the opposite direction.the lower stage came down with no problem. the upper stage came down and yard darted, sending the nose cone about two inches in the tube splitting it.the chute and wading were untouched. well thats all i can remember, everything is a haze from there. HA HA HA ! any help please!!!!! and what would be the best way to fix my rocket?????????????
 

rokitflite

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It really sounds like when the first stage motor stopped burning the inertia carried the upper stage off of its motor just before it ignited.
 

gpoehlein

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As to your second question - the damage doesn't look too bad from this end. I'd cut off the front 3 inches (just in front of the decals), use a coupler to glue a new 3 inch section in front, and put a new shock cord mount in. Touch up the paint job and you're golden.

Of course, you didn't show us if there was any damage to the back of the rocket. If the motor just slipped out and there was no damage back there, you don't have any more work to do.

Greg
 

JRThro

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Originally posted by gpoehlein
Of course, you didn't show us if there was any damage to the back of the rocket. If the motor just slipped out and there was no damage back there, you don't have any more work to do.

Greg
Except to figure out why the sustainer motor came out, and fix things so it doesn't happen again.
 

Aron Sanford

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Hi!
I think the problem may have been that the tape holding both engines together never let go at staging. So when the the charge started the second stage engine, it pulled it out of the second stage & the broke off from the booster & went flying it's merry way. I have found that masking tape works best on muti stage rockets-just one piece of tape around both engines. . And use the masking tape to hold the upper stage engine in, don't ever put it in with out tape to snug up the fit!
Hope this helps!
Aron
 

lipp

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thanks you all have been very helpfull!!!
 

nialloswald

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I find that scotch tape is sometimes better than masking tape for friction fitting motors (though it could melt, but i havent had that problem). You can build it up in thinner layers than with masking tape, I tend to wrap it around the top of the motor to give the maximum amount of contact length if the motor was to kick.

It seems rather odd having the motor come out at ignition, normally its ejection that causes the problem in friction-fit rockets.

It does sound like the upper stage motor was pulled from the sustainer, so the answer may just be 'more tape' :)

Would it be possible to convert the model to gap-staging?
 

Mike

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Lipp, how much scotch tape did you use to connect the two motors?
 

flying_silverad

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When all is said and done, you can always return it to Estes for a new one.

When I test for stage fit, I usually hold the rocket at the top and and shae it a little. If the booster doesn't fall off until I give it a good "pop" then I know it's okay.

Humidity tends to shift the fit a bit, at least for me, so always check and re-check fit.

Your nose cone may hava also come off prematurely, that would account for the Zip at the top of the tube.
 

nomopbo

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You know,
I'm not so sure what to think of that Renegade yet. I saw one at NARAM do some crazy stuff.
 

Missileman

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It sounds to me, based on information given, that your booster drag seperated prior to upper stage ignition, pulling upper stage motor out with it.
1. make sure motor is a bit tighter.
2. check to make sure booster coupler is not too loose.
 

powderburner

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Originally posted by shreadvector
I usually apply the tape ONLY to the top portion of the casing that is not full/swollen with propellant - that way it does not shrink and get loose after burning it all up.
Some good advice there.

The adhesive on cellophane tape will (generally) get soft and 'let go' when it gets warm, such as when the motor fires. This can be a good thing if you are using cellophane tape to hold two motors together for staging. It can be a bad thing if you wrapped the motor case with tape to try for a friction fit in the MMT.

Masking tape is better (IMHO) for wrapping/trimming for a friction fit. It is indeed thicker, as someone here noted, but I have never had problems because of the thickness. If the fit is already that tight (without tape) I just use a narrow piece and apply it lengthwise to the motor---there is no rule that says you have to wrap it all around the circumference.

And if I do use tape to get a friction fit, I don't place the tape on or near the back end of the motor. In case you haven't noticed, many of the Estes-type BP motor casings are swollen a bit (in diameter) at the nozzle. This is because of the factory process of stamping the nozzle materials into place, and the bulged back end does cause a noticeable difference in motor fit within a MMT. I tape the front end of a motor case when I have to get a tighter fit.

When you launch with a taped motor, you need to retrieve your rocket and pull the empty motor casing out ASAP. Leaving the motor case in place will allow the residual motor heat to soak the tape, loosen the glue, and possibly lock the empty motor case into the MMT after the thing cools off later. Not good. I am sure that if you ask here on TRF for removal tips, you will get about a dozen answers on how to get stuck motors unstuck.

As you build your models, something to keep in mind is the possibility of stuck motors. I like to reinforce my MMT tubes by (at least) swiping through the insides with a coating of thinned glue, waiting for the glue to dry, and a light sanding until the insides of the MMT tube are nice and smooth. Probably, CA is better for this purpose, as coatings made with water-based glues might absorb a bit of humidity or moisture and glue themselves to a motor case.

And don't overlook the use of motor retaining clips. For a multi-stage rocket, you can still use a clip on the upper stage if it has a single flat tab that bends around the rear face of the motor (the fancy Estes-style clips will have to be surgically altered to remove the little squiggle--- a squiggle-ectomy?) Load the upper stage motor, hold the lower stage motor tightly against the clip, and tape the motors together as usual. This will give you a more positive upper stage retention.
 

Bill

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Originally posted by powderburner

And don't overlook the use of motor retaining clips. For a multi-stage rocket, you can still use a clip on the upper stage if it has a single flat tab that bends around the rear face of the motor (the fancy Estes-style clips will have to be surgically altered to remove the little squiggle--- a squiggle-ectomy?) Load the upper stage motor, hold the lower stage motor tightly against the clip, and tape the motors together as usual. This will give you a more positive upper stage retention.
This technique has a significant added benefit of greatly reducing the chance of flying with the upper-stage motor installed upside-down.


Bill
 

lipp

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well here we go! this weekend is flight 2 of Renegade! I finally got it put back together. Here's a picture..
 

lipp

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i have three kids and; WOW!!!!!! it don't look like that when your sitting here useing it!!!!! the things you see in pictures.
 
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