Recycling Container Oddroc

Discussion in 'Oddrocs' started by JLRockets, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. Jun 29, 2011 #31

    mannyskid

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    This is looking great Judy! I cant wait to see it fly. Are you going to fly this monster at ECOF? LDRS would be a great venue for this project too. One thing that you have failed to mention is the motor you will be using. Will this get another one of those sweet M3700's? I regret missing that flight of your Darkstar. From the TWA photos it looks like there were about 4 or 5 M's that day. I like the looks of those winglets, how are you attatching them to the fins? Just west systems and a big old fillet? Good luck with this project! Talk to you soon.

    Manny
     
  2. Jun 30, 2011 #32

    JLRockets

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    :wink:
    Of course we don’t think your being critical of our design. After all, we’ve copied your design!:wink:
     
  3. Jun 30, 2011 #33

    JLRockets

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    Eat Cheese or Fly is the official unveiling day for all of the recycling bottle rockets. We’ll have to hustle to make it, with Jackson’s busy summer schedule, but we’re doing what we can.

    Thanks, Manny, for giving me the opportunity to brag about the M3700 flight. It was a good one. For those who were not there, team JLRockets launched our Ultimate Dark Star on a Cesaroni M3700, in honor of Jackson’s birthday. That white thunder propellant has a very sweet kick off the pad. Here’s a link to the on-board video from the flight:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RirTkRh7-Y

    If you’re going to use the M3700 - and I do recommend this - don’t forget to get hold of a copy of the “double secret instructions” – the hidden addendum to the instructions that is not included with the motor, but nonetheless contains essential information for a proper build. I’m not sure why Cesaroni is hiding this little gem, but JLRockets will not be stopped. We were able to thwart their impeccable security to obtain the classified information, thus ensuring the proper use of glue in the build. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.
    http://www.pro38.com/pdfs/Pro75_notes_V1.4.pdf

    We won’t be using the M3700 in the bottle, because it is too long, especially since we own the 6XL case and not the 6 grain case, so we used it with a spacer. We have, however, considered the smaller M3100 and the bigger M3400. Jackson wants to use a Skidmark to get that sparkling soda affect, but I don’t think we’ll build light enough for a sparky.

    After the results of the test flight, we’re leaning towards a greater than 5 to 1 ratio. The scale model did poorly with just under a 5:1 ratio, but great with a 7:1 ratio. The 75’s are longer and distribute the weight up into the rocket, thus helping with the stability. So, we’re looking at 75’s with good initial thrust, but not so many newtons so as to launch this giant garbage can into outer space. The M2250 C-star is a strong contender, as is the L2350 or the M3100. But with either white thunder or c-star, we’ll have to build strong. These are powerful propellants.

    Which brings me to your last question. The primary attachment for the fins will be the poured or injected internal fillets between the motor tube and the fins (both fiberglass) and the internal tube and the fins. We’ll do this with pour-able epoxy, so it will be Pro-line mixed with chopped carbon fiber. All of the strength will be internal. The bottle will be something like a dress that the rocket wears to the launch for appearance sake. However, it will have to be firmly attached as well. We will attach the centering rings to the bottle with the black tar epoxy that comes with Wildman’s blackhawk rockets. I tested it, and it does attach to the bottle. But, just to be sure, we will also bolt the centering rings into the bottle. We’ll also use the Blackhawk epoxy to make external fillets between the bottle and the fin. Our chief engineer is skeptical, but I’m asking him to consider plywood struts along the side of each fin on the interior wall of the bottle (attached to the centering rings). Then, we could add one more internal fillet that attaches the fin to the backside of the bottle that would hold with a high degree of reliability.

    UltDS_on_M3700_small.jpg
     
  4. Jul 3, 2011 #34

    JLRockets

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    Sorry, Manny. It looks like I did not actually answer your last question. You asked how we are going to attach the winglets, not the fins. We are currently planning to bolt the winglets onto the main fins using L-brackets. We expect the winglets to break on landing, and want to have a way to easily replace them. Also, we think we can get the bottle into the minivan more easily with the winglets off.
     
  5. Jul 3, 2011 #35

    stickershock23

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    YOu guys, that is look wa cool so far. wish I could be there to see them in the air!

    I want to try and get my R2D2 Cooler ready for MWP... but I doubt it.
     
  6. Jul 4, 2011 #36

    JLRockets

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    Mark, we haven't forgotten about you. The label is just one of the many things that we are behind on. Since we are currently exiled from the workshop (some people call it vacation), we are just now taking the time to make some decisions on the label.

    If this thing survives its maiden flight at Eat Cheese or Fly, and if we can get it to Kansas, we plan on flying it again at LDRS.

    How will you get the R2D2 into the checked baggage for MWP?
     
  7. Jul 5, 2011 #37

    stickershock23

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    No rush I am here whenever you are ready.

    We are thinking about driving out this time. I want to actually FLY some rockets this time.... and I have a special project in mind.... If I can do it in time.. I was given some 7.5" tube couplers motor mount and a nose cone... its perfect for an upscale Estes "re-release" of a Exotic kit....
     
  8. Jul 7, 2011 #38

    JLRockets

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    Ok, I finally downloaded the pictures of the fin cutting process, and can take care of this past due post. With the four pieces of fin material in hand, we headed back over to the workshop of Frank, the father of Jackson’s friend Augie. With Frank’s guidance and Augie’s help, Jackson cut each piece of fin material into an actual fin.

    We made a slight change to the fin design before fin production. The fins will now go through the wall all the way to the motor tube, instead of just to the internal 7.5 inch tube, as we had previously planned. We are planning to pour or inject internal epoxy fillets at both the motor tube attachment and the stuffer tube attachment, although we haven’t yet hammered out the details on the method. Attaching the fins to the motor tube this way will make assembly more complicated, but it will strengthen the internal structure of the rocket.

    Each fin is 15 inches tall and extends 13 inches from the bottle. The fin tab for each fin is 7 inches deep. In the picture with Jackson and Augie holding the fins, the fins are sideways. The part that is on the table is the part that will attach to the motor tube. The fin tab extends to the place where the angle begins. Each fin weighs 29 ounces (not counting edge finishing and winglet).

    The next step is to finish the edges of the fins. We plan to use pre-made balsa leading edge (balsa sticks with pre-rounded top used on wings in model airplane making). We will attach with epoxy, and then fiberglass over the leading edge to enhance attachment and strength of the balsa.

    setting up the saw.JPG

    straight cut.JPG

    angle cut.JPG

    cut fin.jpg

    four cut fins.JPG
     
  9. Jul 21, 2011 #39

    JLRockets

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    We finished off the fins with balsa leading edge, glassed on with fiberglass tape.

    Next, Jackson cut the fin slots. This was messy and unpleasant work. The black plastic dust sprayed hot off the dremel, burned Jackson’s hand and disseminated itself everywhere. Lucky for us, we decided to do this part of the work on the day the cleaning lady comes. Due to her heroic efforts helping us clean up, we have decided to officially include our cleaning lady as part of the project team. We're not sure what this means, other than further opportunities to help us clean up, but we're very greatful.

    fin edges with balsa.jpg

    Jackson cutting external slots.jpg

    messy fin slot.jpg

    jackson finishing exteranl slots.jpg
     
  10. Jul 21, 2011 #40

    JLRockets

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    Next up was cutting the fin slots on the inside 7.5 inch tube. It was necessary, but difficult, to get these to be perfectly lined up with the outer slots. We ended up cutting them a bit wider than optimal. To accommodate, we will glass the internal fillets that attach to the 7.5 tube (poured epoxy would drip out of the excessively wide slot). We will still pour/inject epoxy for the fillets where the fins attach to the motor tube.

    internal fin slots.jpg
     
  11. Jul 21, 2011 #41

    JLRockets

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    The next step was to scruff the inside of the bottle. The specialty epoxy that we are using will adhere to the plastic of the bottle, but only if we scruff. We inadvertently tested this when I forgot to scruff before the initial adherence test. Scruffing is NOT optional! (But my guess is that wearing the bottle on your head is optional.)

    Jackson scruffing bottle inside.jpg

    jackson inside bottle.jpg
     
  12. Jul 21, 2011 #42

    JLRockets

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    We recently did three important test fits. First, we fit the fins into both layers of fin slots. All’s good there.

    Second, we put the rocket with dry fitted fins (but no winglets) into the minivan. Success! We have proved that we can transport the rocket, although the winglets will have to be attached at the launch site. (The fins are a bit crooked in the test fit picture because we didn’t haul the internal tube all the way down to the car.)

    The third test fit may be the most important one. This was the crucial window test fit.

    The width of the stairway up to our third floor workshop is substantially less than the 46 inch span diameter of the rocket without winglets. So, our previous plan was to do everything from fin attachment on in the garage, since we can’t get the rocket out the workshop door once it has its fins on.

    I showed my husband the rocket in the workshop with dry fitted fins. He suggested that I re-read Mike Mulligan and His Steam Shovel. For those of you who don’t remember this endearing children’s story, Mike Mulligan takes on a bet to dig a hole with his beloved steam shovel. He is so eager to win the bet and prove his steam shovel’s worth that he jumps right in on the digging – without considering how he will get the steam shovel out of the hole after he’s done. The steam shovel remains stuck in the hole, and eventually gets turned into the furnace for the new building. In other words, my husband was convinced that the rocket was stuck forever in the workshop and he would someday be sitting in an old rocking chair, reading a story to the rocket that never left.

    But, we are more clever than that. We put the back end of the rocket - with dry fitted fins, but no winglets – out the workshop window. It fits! We are freed from the inconvenience of working in the garage (this is especially important with the current heat in Chicago. The workshop is air conditioned, the garage is not). Our new plan is to complete work in the workshop, and then lower the rocket out through the window before the launch (belaying mechanism to be determined). This, of course, was Jackson’s idea. Chalk yet another one up to the Chief Engineer.

    jackson with fin test fit.jpg

    minivan test fit.jpg

    window test fit.jpg
     
  13. Jul 22, 2011 #43

    SMR

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    Wow, you've been busy. The pieces are all coming together nicely and the rocket is looking great. Have you considered building a winch beam into the ceiling of the workshop? It would certainly be helpful with this build, as well as with some of the projects you and Jackson will have in the future.

    :smile:

    beam1.jpg

    Screen shot 2011-07-22 at 2.26.20 PM.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  14. Jul 26, 2011 #44

    ECayemberg

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    Judy, nice seeing you and Jackson at the launch on Saturday!

    I'm hoping it's an optical delusion, but it appears that once the fins are attached to the core tube at the proper angle and offset, it might be a tight squeeze on the top side of the minivan. I know the photo is of a dry fit only, but it appears to me that once the fins are secured in position, it may not fit. I hope I'm wrong!

    For transporting my Pyro Pumpkin series (about the same dia and fin size as your bottle rocket), we usually end up strapping it to a hitch hauler exterior to the vehicle on the way to Midwest Power. We have a Trailblazer...it fits, but not with other rockets, tools, and suitcases in place.

    Either way, great project!!!

    -Eric-
     
  15. Aug 6, 2011 #45

    JLRockets

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    Good news! The picture is not fully representative of the actual dry fitting that we did. I hope I don't need to go into the details of the "discussion" we had about photographing the fitting versus doing the fitting. The long and the short of it is, we'll be okay. Thanks for noticing. These things are more important they look at first glance. The best laid plans of mice of men can get left in the attic if they don't fit out the window.
     
  16. Aug 6, 2011 #46

    JLRockets

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    Alright, the work is heating up, but the posts are cooling down. This is a direct and logical correlation. The more time we spend on work, the less time we have to post. So, quickly, here is a some of our progress: painted fins are the drying rack (formally known as the bookshelf); internal support for rail buttons; bolts holding the bottom centering ring in place.

    internal rail button support.jpg

    bolts in bottom cr.jpg

    fin drying rack.jpg
     
  17. Aug 6, 2011 #47

    JLRockets

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    More progress. This time on the winglets. We originally planned the winglets with a straight bottom edge for ease of cut (my suggested design). But our Chief Engineer found that design boring (typical teenager response). So, we entered the world of “advanced table saw skills”. With the help of Jackson’s grandfather, Florian, of aforementioned winglet fame, Jackson made a creative jig to allow for the angle cuts necessary to complete the final winglet design. They look pretty good. Maybe I should follow the teenager instinct more often!

    making jig for angle cut.jpg

    jackson with winglets.jpg

    stack of winglets.jpg
     
  18. Aug 6, 2011 #48

    JLRockets

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    Another effect of our slow posting is that, although we have informed the WOOSH community, we have not yet made it formally known that we have officially entered this project into the odd rock competition at LDRS. My apologies. This is actaully exciting news that we have failed to deliver.

    This means that we will be launching the bottle at LDRS. Because of the timing of LDRS in relation to Eat Cheese or Fly, we will not be able to launch the bottle at ECOF. We are giving all of our equipment, rockets included, to Tim Lehr of Wildman Rocketry at the conclusion of ECOF for transport to LDRS (Jackson can’t miss school – it’s a new high school, and all – so we are flying down. Thanks much to Tim for his willingness to transport our stuff and make the launch possible for us). If anything gets damaged at ECOF, we can’t fix it. So, the bottle will be making its maiden launch at LDRS.

    We greatly hope that the rocket will be fully intact after the LDRS launch, and ready for re-launch at Midwest Power.

    We have been filming our progress with a Discovery Science Channel camera (which is why the posts have slowed down!) We hope that we will not end up entirely on the cutting room floor, and that you can view our work on the Science Channel show.
     
  19. Aug 10, 2011 #49

    SMR

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    Thanks for the reminder, Judy. I moved my two ECOF projects from the basement workshop to the garage today. As the fins of one and the winglets of the other get installed, the clearance down the hall is pretty tight.
     
  20. Aug 22, 2011 #50

    JLRockets

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    The Great Lowering has occurred. The rocket has made its window escape, and has been successfully liberated from its attic prison – ready to fly! Obviously, I have some explaining to do, since the rocket didn’t even have fins in my last post. I’ll catch up when I can.
     
  21. Aug 31, 2011 #51

    JLRockets

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    The rocket is finished and all this is backfill, so I’ll run through it quickly.

    Here you see the rocket with fins tacked, awaiting work on the fillets.

    Fin can statistical rundown:

    • 40 total fillets
    • 6 pounds of epoxy poured (measured as input – there was much left in the mixing cups)
    • Over ½ gallon of foam
    • 1200 shop towels
    • 2 gallons of denatured alcohol
    • 3 shirts, 4 pairs of shorts rendered un-wearable except in the workshop
    • Over 1 million reminders to the Chief Engineer that we are working in a finished space – yes, all spills must be cleaned up (thus the 1200 shop towels and 2 gallons of denatured alcohol)

    fin can on operating table.jpg

    fin can awaiting fillets.jpg
     
  22. Aug 31, 2011 #52

    JLRockets

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    Av bay – we decided to go with accelerometer based single deploy for ease of construction and to avoid air flow issues from the bumpy bottle. As usual, Jackson was in charge of design. And, as usual, he did a good job with it.

    av bay design.jpg

    av bay design 2.jpg

    av bay in place.jpg
     
  23. Aug 31, 2011 #53

    JLRockets

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    Here we have the rocket ready for the “swing test” – just kidding, we didn’t really swing a 100 pound rocket. But we did hang it from the ceiling to determine its actual center of gravity.

    Results of analysis: 30 pounds of nose weight made up of 25 pounds of lead shot mixed with 5 pounds of epoxy, foam, bulk plates and attachment bolts.

    Additional stats given the 30 pounds of nose weight:
    • Total rocket weight loaded: 105 pounds.
    • Total usage of hi-temp epoxy: one full gallon! That in and of itself is a special achievement. Very few rockets pack a full gallon of the good stuff. All this for a garbage can.

    nose cone weighting.jpg

    bottle before window exit.jpg
     
  24. Aug 31, 2011 #54

    JLRockets

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    The big event – out the window! Jackson concocted a zip line so that the fins would not scrape against the house on the way down. He's one heck of a Chief Engineer!

    window exit 1.jpg

    window exit 2.jpg

    window exit 6.jpg

    window exit 7.jpg

    window exit 8.jpg
     
  25. Aug 31, 2011 #55

    JLRockets

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    Success.

    charge test 1 small.jpg

    charge test 2 small.jpg

    charge test 3 small.jpg

    charge test 4 small.jpg
     
  26. Aug 31, 2011 #56

    JLRockets

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    The label. I have to hand it to Mark Hayes at Sticker Shock. I literally told him: we’re calling it Lubin’s AP Soda – make it look nice. Sticker Shock did all of the graphic design, including logo design. Who knew they do product placement in addition to decals. Thanks Mark!

    Ap Soda Label final.jpg
     
  27. Aug 31, 2011 #57

    JLRockets

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    In the minivan – it fits!

    On display at Eat Cheese or Fly, awaiting loading on the transport vehicle down to Kansas. We are (almost) go for launch! Saturday, Sept 3 at 9am. Kansas. Be there.

    bottle in minivan.jpg

    finished bottle at ecof.jpg
     
  28. Aug 31, 2011 #58

    JLRockets

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    Wow! Seems like we did this all in one day. What a great way to build a rocket. Just kidding about that. The reason that I got so behind in posts is that talking about work slows the work. Jackson and I have worked very hard this summer. To come full circle, I repeat Sather’s post from the beginning of this thread:

    You are going to love scratch-built rocketry. The biggest differences, in my opinion, between a Wildman / Performance G-10 kit and a scratch-built are time and personal satisfaction. With kits, pretty much everything is there, pre-cut, and ready to assemble. If you don't include epoxy curing time, one could assemble a G-10 kit in an hour. While there is some skill involved in component alignment and epoxy application, the kits are generally well engineered and forgiving. Scratch-built rocketry, on the other hand, is more expensive and time-consuming, and not the least bit forgiving. You can easily spend a week building a single part, change the design spec, and have to throw it away. But, you get a real sense of pride flying something unique, of your own design, personally crafted from raw materials. Add to that the unique difficulties inherent in the recycling bottle. It's PLASTIC. No epoxy on Earth will stick to it, it shatters when cold, and it is not particularly aerodynamic. But, to develop complex problem solving skills, one has to start with a complex problem.

    I love this quote from Teddy Roosevelt... “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
    Absolutely true. We’re hooked.
     
  29. Sep 1, 2011 #59

    ECayemberg

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    Fantastic JLRockets!!! Best of luck with the flight and in general at LDRS! I LOVE the photos of the bottle zip-lining out of the second story window....wonder what the neighbors think...by now they probably already know.

    I can't be there...but my Dad and some of my propellant will be.

    Again, well done and happy flights.

    -Eric-
     
  30. Sep 1, 2011 #60

    stickershock23

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    Judy YOu are more than welcome. Sorry it did not go as well as we wanted. BUT it is looks BEAUTIFUL!! Good luck with it's first flight. wish I could be there!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011

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