Questions about streamers

[SuperNova-Rocketry]

For my next High Power Rocket design, I wanted to see if I could incorporate streamers instead of a drogue chute as they seem easier to pack and deploy and would be very beneficial when I want to have both the apogee chute (drogue) and the main parachute exit from the nose cone without tanging.
My question here is how would I work out the size, material and thickness of streamer that I would require for my rocket? Or if it’s more of a rough estimation

 

[SolarYellow]

Streamer analysis sucks. Unlike parachutes, the literature is all over the place. There is no way to design it "by the book," because the books vary too much. You just have to try some things and maybe iterate until you get results you like. Seeing what's worked for others in similar situations may help.

 

[David Schwantz]

4" Black Hole by Mach 1. 150" streamer. Wildman Mach 2 has 100" streamer. 54mm Tomach has 120" streamer. 29mm Go devil has 48" streamer.

 

[Handeman]

I've found drogue sizing to be a trial and error process. You can get close with experience, or Open Rocket or other simulators, but they really don't give you good readings considering the two halves are falling randomly and at various angles.
I've take as many as 4 flights to size a drogue to get an acceptable falling formation from apogee. I would expect streamers to be the same or worse.

My suggestion is to fly them to an altitude when you can observer the fall from apogee to main (4K ft. with mains at 400 ft.) and adjust sizes each flight until you get the fall with a good inverted V. Keep an eye on the falling formation in case you need to make an adjustment later.

 

[Theory]

I find that streamer drogues are very "rocket dependent."

I ran a stream drogue (90" X 7" Top Flight Ultra) on my WM Drago 4 "EX-1127" for its first 15 flights or so. Recovery weight is a little over 13 pounds and it uses HED so everything is packed in a fairly small package. Almost every time the nose and electronics bay combo would be coming in pointed at the ground like a freakin bullet. It was very easy to see, especially over 6,000 feet up, but there was little control over the "system" as it fell. I replace the streamer with an 18" drogue and it falls much better.

Now, on my carbon wrapped Laser Loc 313, I use a streamer (70" X 5" Top Flight Ultra) with zero issues. Everything falls nice and controlled.

Test and find out what works, though would recommend opting for control over visibility if it comes to it.

 

[kramer714]

one... observation...

It is MUCH easier to spot a streamer at 5,000 feet than a small parachute. I have been thinking about doing both, streamer for the view drogue for the control...

 

[cerving]

I think that on an HPR rocket you have to consider a streamer to be a visual spotting device, rather than something that slows the rocket down. You basically have to consider the rocket to be drogueless. Whatever drag it adds is a bonus.

 

[Handeman]

one... observation...

It is MUCH easier to spot a streamer at 5,000 feet than a small parachute. I have been thinking about doing both, streamer for the view drogue for the control...

Doing that, I would attach the streamer to apex of the drogue.

 

[cls]

Mylar streamers make a lot of noise, which can be helpful. Most of recovery is knowing where to look. Never had any problem hearing and finding my Apogee Aspire.



So I got real smart. Bought some 5 mil aluminized mylar and made a long 4" wide streamer. Used package tape (mylar) to tie it to the shock cord. Put a K185 in my LOC Caliber ISP. Sent it up, soooo high! Ejection! Hey great, there's the streamer glinting in the sun.

So I watched the streamer drift in the upper air.. for minutes... Before I realized, hey, it's not coming down! Heading for the next county!

Meanwhile, the rocket landed close by, behind us. Drove right past it on the way back to camp.

 

[SuperNova-Rocketry]

one... observation...

It is MUCH easier to spot a streamer at 5,000 feet than a small parachute. I have been thinking about doing both, streamer for the view drogue for the control...

Im definitely going to try that

 

[Lotronex]

Mylar streamers make a lot of noise, which can be helpful. Most of recovery is knowing where to look. Never had any problem hearing and finding my Apogee Aspire.



So I got real smart. Bought some 5 mil aluminized mylar and made a long 4" wide streamer. Used package tape (mylar) to tie it to the shock cord. Put a K185 in my LOC Caliber ISP. Sent it up, soooo high! Ejection! Hey great, there's the streamer glinting in the sun.

So I watched the streamer drift in the upper air.. for minutes... Before I realized, hey, it's not coming down! Heading for the next county!

Meanwhile, the rocket landed close by, behind us. Drove right past it on the way back to camp.

This happened to me with my Estes Hi-Flyer. I put a 3x48in mylar streamer in there so I'd be able to find it, saw it come out at apogee and just hang in the air until it drifted out of site. Figured it was lost, but while searching the cornfield for my Hyper Bat's sustainer I stumbled on the body of the Hi-Flyer, turns out it just separated at the nose cone anchor.

 

[Handeman]

Mylar streamers make a lot of noise, which can be helpful. Most of recovery is knowing where to look. Never had any problem hearing and finding my Apogee Aspire.



So I got real smart. Bought some 5 mil aluminized mylar and made a long 4" wide streamer. Used package tape (mylar) to tie it to the shock cord. Put a K185 in my LOC Caliber ISP. Sent it up, soooo high! Ejection! Hey great, there's the streamer glinting in the sun.

So I watched the streamer drift in the upper air.. for minutes... Before I realized, hey, it's not coming down! Heading for the next county!

Meanwhile, the rocket landed close by, behind us. Drove right past it on the way back to camp.

That's the problem with mylar, it tears really easily. Any nick in the edge and it will tear. You really need to put something on the edges to stop tears from starting, but that kind of defeats the usefulness of mylar.

 

[lr64]

Just how fast to high power rockets come down under drogues? If it's less than highway speeds, you could fly one off a fishing rod, preferably one with a pulley on the end, and measure the force at different speeds. Get someone else to drive. Maybe run an anemometer at the same time, in case there's a breeze, but where you mount the anemometer matters. Too close to the wrong spot on the car and it will read high. You could get a rough idea using a manometer with a tube pointing forward out on the fish pole.

 

[Handeman]

Just how fast to high power rockets come down under drogues? If it's less than highway speeds, you could fly one off a fishing rod, preferably one with a pulley on the end, and measure the force at different speeds. Get someone else to drive. Maybe run an anemometer at the same time, in case there's a breeze, but where you mount the anemometer matters. Too close to the wrong spot on the car and it will read high. You could get a rough idea using a manometer with a tube pointing forward out on the fish pole.

55 mph is about 80 ft/sec so that would be appropriate. That's why the snatch forces on our main chutes aren't really that much. A slow skydiver in an arch position will be falling 120 mph when they deploy the chute.

 

[Theory]

Important to remember, the drogue is there to control the decent and keep all the parts "in order" not so much to slow anything down.

The real issue I had with the streamer drogue on my 4" WM Drago was that the heavy (and very aerodynamic) nose cone / ebay combo would like to come in uncontrolled pointed right at the ground like a bullet. The rest of the rocket was to the side or sometimes worse, appeared to be dragged along. This is not what you want.

 

[ZEDL1]

Doing that, I would attach the streamer to apex of the drogue.

Many years ago for we old fliers, this is what they used in several of their kits. I think it was the old North Coat Rocketry manufacturer.

 

[Handeman]

I just ordered some bird scare tape I want to attach to the apex of my drogue chutes to see if it helps visibility. Not concerned about control on the way down, the drogue does that. Just wondering how well it will hold up.

 

[David Schwantz]

I have used rolls of ribbon from JoAnn s fabric before. Many colors to choose from, and they will last several flights. But do need replacing after a while.

 

[Handeman]

I have used rolls of ribbon from JoAnn s fabric before. Many colors to choose from, and they will last several flights. But do need replacing after a while.

The bird scare tape is holographic reflective. I'm hoping to get lots of sun glints off it. Does JoAnn's have anything like that?

 

[lakeroadster]

The bird scare tape is holographic reflective. I'm hoping to get lots of sun glints off it. Does JoAnn's have anything like that?

Here's the Bird tape I've purchased for streamers... it's $7.99 for 350 Feet​

Ugold Silver Bird Scaring Reflective Tape, Holographic Ribbon, Ideal for Garden, Patio, Field and Fence, 2" x 350 Ft (Silver)​

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[Handeman]

Here's the Bird tape I've purchased for streamers... it's $7.99 for 350 Feet​

Ugold Silver Bird Scaring Reflective Tape, Holographic Ribbon, Ideal for Garden, Patio, Field and Fence, 2" x 350 Ft (Silver)​

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View attachment 633427View attachment 633428​

Have you tested it yet?

Does it work well, or tear apart with the 50-100 ft/sec fall rate?

That may be the same stuff I ordered.

 

[David Schwantz]

I would say yes they do. Not called bird scare though. They have the holo stuff in red, blue, heck you could probably even get rocket themed stuff there. Nice thing is it came it all widths, I first got it for some 13mm stuff, so 1/2" wide was perfect.

 

[lakeroadster]

Have you tested it yet?

Does it work well, or tear apart with the 50-100 ft/sec fall rate?

That may be the same stuff I ordered.

Not yet in a rocket.​

​

We had an issue with birds on our back porch and I hung several strands of it from the spouting by our back door. The strips seemed to shred after they were in the sun for a week.​

 

[Kane]

The analysis around parachutes is difficult enough given the seeming lack of standards around calculation of drag coefficient and effective area. Streamers seem to be a total crap shoot.
I've used streamers on smaller HPRs (less than 2lbs dry). Results have been fine so I guess they've done what they're supposed to (keeping all the falling parts in some semblance of order). However, no matter what I do or how many swivels I add, I always seem to recover the rocket with the streamer and it's shock cord in a giant snarled mess.
And I really hate knots and snarled cords. I've never had this issue with standard drogues.

 

[bad_idea]

I just ordered some bird scare tape I want to attach to the apex of my drogue chutes to see if it helps visibility. Not concerned about control on the way down, the drogue does that. Just wondering how well it will hold up.

Have you tested it yet?

Does it work well, or tear apart with the 50-100 ft/sec fall rate?

That may be the same stuff I ordered.

I've flown streamers as long as 15m made of this exact ribbon as the sole recovery device in small rockets. Launched down-sun, the ribbon makes a bright flashing line in the sky which generally makes it easy to spot tiny rockets several thousand feet up. It also makes them easy to find on the ground when you have a good bearing, as it will flutter quite a lot and make noise and sparkle, and when long enough it tends to get draped all around the landing site.

I've not launched a rocket with this stuff when facing the sun, and I've yet to use it as a drogue or to supplement a drogue in larger rockets.

In my experience, the bird scare ribbon works well, but only in a single use. It flaps around a lot, and my guess is it takes more damage than it does in its typical bird-scaring use in much shorter lengths. In any case, it tends to tear when flown again. I do not fold the ribbon back over itself repeatedly as some do for streamers, I just roll it up, as I figure that reduces the chances of damage prior to flight.