Questions about past kits

[banjonate]

Was there a recalibration or resetting of the skill levels given to kits along the way somewhere?

I was looking at some past catalogs and noticed that through the years, some of the kits moved. The Comanche 3 bounced between being a level 3 and 4. The Optima (I had never heard of it before today but goodness I like it...) went between a 2 and a 3. The Nike Apache (the first one I ever built as an 11-year-old) was a 3 back then, but I think it is a 1 now. The Nova Payloader has always been a rock-solid 2.
Just wondering, it seems kind of odd.

 

[heada]

When the skill levels change, you should also see a kit# or part# change at the same time. As things go from die-crushed balsa to plastic to laser cut cardstock, the assembly process changes and thus the skill level changes with it.

 

[samb]

Yes, there have been several skill level resets over the years. I believe they can be tied to management changes more or less. The first skill level matrix came in the 1971 catalog.

Estes 1971 catalog ninfinger

A guy in the room said it was a marketing program.

skill levels

 

[mooffle]

Separate from Estes being potentially random, Apogee has their own rating system which I've always liked. Makes it easier to pick out a kit when they classify things like attention to detail in scale, instruction clarity, 3fnc vs oddrocs, glues ans supplies needed, etc.

I also can't figure out why Estes only had 3 ratings at one point. Doesn't seem like enough gradation if you are relatively new to the hobby and want to 'level up' as I recall level 3 kits varying pretty wildly. My guess is this contributed to the last reset.

 

[heada]

Estes has actually 7 levels currently.

0 - Beginner
1 - Intermediate
2 - Advanced
3 - Expert
4 - Master
5 - Master (why the same name, not sure)
Pro Series II

 

[Nytrunner]

Estes has actually 7 levels currently.

0 - Beginner
1 - Intermediate
2 - Advanced
3 - Expert
4 - Master
5 - Master (why the same name, not sure)
Pro Series II

Is pro series ii really a skill level? I thought that just denoted their larger mid power kits

 

[heada]

It doesn't have a skill level so its either a 7th level or outside of their level structure. I went with a 7th level.

 

[GlenP]

Is pro series ii really a skill level? I thought that just denoted their larger mid power kits

PSII actually has two of their own skill levels: "E2X Beginner" and "Builder Kit"

 

[caveduck]

Originally it was 1-5 with different text descriptions than what they use today, and was indeed a marketing initiative - Dane Boles (former Estes marketing wiz) has described this a number of times over the years. It was supposed to help customer retention by giving a progression of advancement. When it was created, there were no RTF's (nor even E2X) so skill 0 was added later to cover buy-n-fly.

It's not common in the hobby industry to have such a fine-grained skill rating scale - this system is peculiar to Estes and its direct competitors. If you even hop over to HPR there are no skill levels apart from the L1 to L3 power/cert ratings. Both Wildman and Madcow index kits by body size and airframe material (glass vs cardboard).

A little further away, if you check out Model Shipways kits, there is a huge range in parts counts and difficulty, but the website mostly just has loose descriptions and some info about how many parts you are dealing with. Things with hundreds of parts are described as beginner or introductory. Tower Hobbies lists airplanes by completion level, size, and type...no indexing by perceived difficulty.

I'm gonna throw out the trollbait here and say that I think Estes ought to abolish the 1-5 "skill" rating and switch to the completion/size/type system. To me, that is a lot more informative, and those things are not subjective in any way. The 1-5 rating is a composite of several factors and leads to opaque and inconsistent results. Apparently, building a 24mm power rocket is "more difficult" than a 13mm or 18mm one, even though the parts count may be identical, and the larger parts should be easier for a kid to handle. Scratching my head about why the HiFlyer XL is "advanced" despite being a 100% trivial 3FNC. Ask any Cub Scout to thread the shock cord on a Gnome and see how that comes out

 

[mooffle]

Scratching my head about why the HiFlyer XL is "advanced" despite being a 100% trivial 3FNC. Ask any Cub Scout to thread the shock cord on a Gnome and see how that comes out

Again, I'd defer to the Apogee tier list and how half the criteria are not just ease of construction but also knowing what engines are safe, knowing where and what conditions to fly, etc. I assume estes did the same thing with the hi-flyer. Even though a 10 year old could build it doesn't mean they should take it to their school yard and fly it. Where as they maybe could with an alpha.
I'm also not advocating for or against such a system, it certainly has its pros and cons. Just playing devils advocate.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Originally it was 1-5 with different text descriptions than what they use today, and was indeed a marketing initiative - Dane Boles (former Estes marketing wiz) has described this a number of times over the years. It was supposed to help customer retention by giving a progression of advancement. When it was created, there were no RTF's (nor even E2X) so skill 0 was added later to cover buy-n-fly.

It's not common in the hobby industry to have such a fine-grained skill rating scale - this system is peculiar to Estes and its direct competitors. If you even hop over to HPR there are no skill levels apart from the L1 to L3 power/cert ratings. Both Wildman and Madcow index kits by body size and airframe material (glass vs cardboard).

A little further away, if you check out Model Shipways kits, there is a huge range in parts counts and difficulty, but the website mostly just has loose descriptions and some info about how many parts you are dealing with. Things with hundreds of parts are described as beginner or introductory. Tower Hobbies lists airplanes by completion level, size, and type...no indexing by perceived difficulty.

I'm gonna throw out the trollbait here and say that I think Estes ought to abolish the 1-5 "skill" rating and switch to the completion/size/type system. To me, that is a lot more informative, and those things are not subjective in any way. The 1-5 rating is a composite of several factors and leads to opaque and inconsistent results. Apparently, building a 24mm power rocket is "more difficult" than a 13mm or 18mm one, even though the parts count may be identical, and the larger parts should be easier for a kid to handle. Scratching my head about why the HiFlyer XL is "advanced" despite being a 100% trivial 3FNC. Ask any Cub Scout to thread the shock cord on a Gnome and see how that comes out

I suspect that some of the skill level also includes launching. If a beginner managed to put together an Advanced some how, they’re likely to lose it to a tree. As someone said, Estes makes money by selling motors and you can’t fly your rocket if it’s stuck in a tree.

 

[Mugs914]

I never really paid a whole lot of attention to the skill level listed for a kit so I don't know when it switched, but I remember when I was just a pup that the catalog referred to "Degree of Challenge" as opposed to "skill level". I think it was 1 - 5 too and crossed straight over when it became skill level.

Seems to me that "degree of challenge" is a whole lot more descriptive of the kit itself and manages to cast no aspersions on the abilities of the builder!