(Question) Double Certs, Inter-Organization Transferability, and Sugar/Rx motors

[Voyhager3]

As I am getting ready to get certified for NAR in a few months here, I realized I also built my rocket to also be L2 capable. However, my year round field in SC is quite the hike, but I started to wonder if I could do my L1 and L2 in the same day. But then I remembered @hobie1dog saying that he couldn’t double cert for TRA, but after asking around I’ve gotten mixed feedback about NARs policy, with some maybes and probablies, but a lot of “I’m not sure”’s and what not. I’ve looked through the NAR website, but I can’t seem to find anything on it. So I hope someone can tell me if I can or not.

Now, to the second part of my question, which may be a bit more obvious. When you get certified in one organization, does it instantly transfer between without having to re-cert?

And the last part, do you have to be TRA level 2 for Rx and sugar motors? Or can you still make these motors if you are NAR level 2?

Thanks!

 

[Steve Shannon]

First, there’s no rule in either organization prohibiting certifying L1 and L2 on the same day.
Second, only L2 Tripoli members may fly research flights at Tripoli launches. A person whose Tripoli card still says L1 may not fly research motors. You would have to wait to receive your Tripoli card.
Third, the Tripoli Unified Safety Code says nothing about making motors. We do not regulate or teach making motors; we just provide safe launch sites and a safety code to protect the attendees at Tripoli launches.
Finally make sure you understand the rules about sugar motors and what’s allowed to fly.

 

[tsmith1315]

Adding to Steve's post...

Neither organization expressly forbids doing both certs in one day. However, the club you're flying with may have policies, or the person who will be certifying you may not agree with that. I wouldn't plan on doing them one the same day unless you talk to the folks running the launch, and the person who would be doing your cert first. Look at NAR L2 Minimum Requirements, #4 here:

https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-2-hpr-certification-procedures/

You can see that there is room for interpretation, such as with the statement "A HPR flight log will help Certification Teams in evaluating a member’s experience level prior to attempting a Level 2 certification flight".

You can get your cert through NAR, then join TRA and send them proof of your NAR certification. TRA will accept that. It's not instantly tranfserred, you send them proof of your cert and they process it.

 

[prfesser]

And the last part, do you have to be TRA level 2 for Rx and sugar motors? Or can you still make these motors if you are NAR level 2?

Thanks!

Just to clarify with no uncertainty: you can make motors all day, but you cannot use those motors---at least, under any insurance---if you are NAR Level 2 or 3. For homemade motor use you must be TRA certified L2 or L3. Which can be done by certifying L2 with NAR, then joining TRA and arranging for cross-certification. But until you get that TRA L2 card you still cannot use homemade motors, even at a TRA launch.

Bottom line: join TRA if you wish to use homemade motors at a launch.

 

[Voyhager3]

Ok thank you for the clarification on all of that! Now I must summon @cwbullet (i don't know if that will work), as I'll be certifying at the SC launch in May, just to make sure the club allows it/ who ever will be certifying me will be ok with it. And I should probably go an send a email to Ken to see if he has any J's and H/I's inbound

 

[cerving]

Why are you in such a hurry? Take your time, build lots of different rockets so you get familiar with different ways of doing things, and enjoy the ride.

And BTW, sugar motors are trickier than they look. Once you get your L2, find a Tripoli mentor and learn from them. I've seen some big sugar motor cato's... like O-sized, and that was by somebody who's been making them for a long time. It's a lot easier for cracks and voids to form in sugar motor grains than with an APCP pour.

 

[Voyhager3]

Why are you in such a hurry? Take your time, build lots of different rockets so you get familiar with different ways of doing things, and enjoy the ride.

And BTW, sugar motors are trickier than they look. Once you get your L2, find a Tripoli mentor and learn from them. I've seen some big sugar motor cato's... like O-sized, and that was by somebody who's been making them for a long time. It's a lot easier for cracks and voids to form in sugar motor grains than with an APCP pour.

That's a good point, now I feel like I'm cert racing, and I know you guys don't really approve of it... which makes sense. I might just get my L1, then build up my fleet over the next year or so, maybe build something that won't go as high on a baby J, or something. The main things that were/are is that A: I go off to college this summer (I don't know where yet, still need to tour Iowa st. on Friday), and B: Budget is slim, so I saw for only a 100 bucks or so I could get my L2 in the same day was kind of appealing to me. And for some reason I just wanted to climb that ladder, but I'll probably end up waiting for a bit, but I don't know.

 

[kramer714]

I suggest you talk to the local TAP or L3CC member from your local club and discuss your plans with them (ahead of time). Every flyer has different experience, different skill set, and different knowledge. Even though this is for a Level 1 / Level 2 the TAP/ L3CC folks are in a good position to asses the flyer and make recommendation for a certification strategy.

In this case, one size doesn't fit all...

BTW most (many?) colleges have rocket teams / clubs with opportunities to fly with them, some have access to discounted hardware and motors.

Iowa State - Rockets

 

[cwbullet]

And the last part, do you have to be TRA level 2 for Rx and sugar motors? Or can you still make these motors if you are NAR level 2?

Thanks!

You must be TRA level two in order to fly a research motor at a launch. You must use commercial motors to certify.

 

[cwbullet]

Ok thank you for the clarification on all of that! Now I must summon @cwbullet (i don't know if that will work), as I'll be certifying at the SC launch in May, just to make sure the club allows it/ who ever will be certifying me will be ok with it. And I should probably go an send a email to Ken to see if he has any J's and H/I's inbound

You can certify both levels in the same day as long you pass the written test and we review you rocket and agree it is safe to fly with a level two motor. Link I said above, you must use a commercial motor to certify.

 

[cbrarick]

not desired way to go.

If your budget is that tight, stay with L1. It's no shame to do what you can afford. Don't worry about rocketry merit badges.
Don't think you're going to save money making small sugar motors.

The cost to entry to EX is fairly high, you need equipment, chemicals, casting tubes and liners, motors that work with EX grains. It's not as cheap as you think.
Look at the break even data, you will be shocked at how many38's you got to make to break even for the cost of all of this.

 

[cwbullet]

not desired way to go.

If your budget is that tight, stay with L1. It's no shame to do what you can afford. Don't worry about rocketry merit badges.
Don't think you're going to save money making small sugar motors.

The cost to entry to EX is fairly high, you need equipment, chemicals, casting tubes and liners, motors that work with EX grains. It's not as cheap as you think.
Look at the break even data, you will be shocked at how many38's you got to make to break even for the cost of all of this.

concur!

 

[KB4SMK]

I did my NAR level 1 & 2 same day in 2019 with this 4” Madcow FG Nike Smoke. If I could go back I would have waited at least a year in between certs.