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#### Dragoon

Ok so ive only been in the rocket scene for about 3 months. Im already addicted (it drives my girlfriend nuts) and i have more rockets than i care to admit. Im also going to launch my first (and hopefully last) attempt at my L1 in about a week and a half in a 4" Phoenix.

HOWEVER

Im all about speed. For a living i work on planes and ive loved fast cars since i was little so naturally some of my favorite rockets are minimum diameter rockets obviously because they can break the sound barrier. The dream rocket is the 98mm Carbon Fiber Tomach from Madcow but thats WAYYYYYYY out of my price range and skill level for awhile.

So heres the question(s). To all of the seasoned Rocketeers whats a good MD rocket to start with? Also beyond that what would be a good progression to go on as far as 29mm rocket then a 38mm so on and so forth. Any and all help, guidance, advice, and suggestions are welcome.

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#### dhbarr

##### Amateur Professional
Smallest / cheapest : 18mm AT reload w/ delay shortened as far as allowable and any kit that weighs<5g. Still probably won't find it, it's crazy tiny for a machbreaker.

#### Zeus-cat

##### Well-Known Member
I have seen one Apogee Aspire launched. No one saw it recovered. Keep in mind that high speed and minimum diameter rockets can be a fire and forget situation. Fire it and forget about it as you ain't seeing it again.

#### DavidMcCann

##### Well-Known Member
Personally, MD's have a few tricky issues to them, space, motor retention, needing a tower or fly away guides, etc.

A 2.6" with a 38mm mount can break the speed of sound.... a 2.6 with a 54mm can demolish it.

The other question is, what's your waiver situation like, and are you ready to get into tracking and DD for this project?

#### MaxQ

##### Tripoli 2747
Personally, MD's have a few tricky issues to them, space, motor retention, needing a tower or fly away guides, etc.
A 2.6" with a 38mm mount can break the speed of sound.... a 2.6 with a 54mm can demolish it.
The other question is, what's your waiver situation like, and are you ready to get into tracking and DD for this project?
Very true.
You can ease your way into MD Mach flights on a 38mm and learn a few things along the way for less $. 98mm CF Tomach ...$899.95 yeah that's pretty steep for a ride on the learning curve.
Mpitfield made a good suggestion ...the 54mm Tomach..or......
Maybe this one meets your price range :
https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ProductDetail.aspx?product=7124
If it looks too lame/boring, try this:
https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ProductDetail.aspx?product=2897
-or if you can find one - ( I did - on this forum) the original bad boy, a Mongoose 38.
- or if nothing else:
https://giantleaprocketry.com/products/kits_highaltitude.aspx

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#### Dragoon

Personally, MD's have a few tricky issues to them, space, motor retention, needing a tower or fly away guides, etc.

A 2.6" with a 38mm mount can break the speed of sound.... a 2.6 with a 54mm can demolish it.

The other question is, what's your waiver situation like, and are you ready to get into tracking and DD for this project?
yea i am prepared for all of that im working on building an arsenal of Egg products so i can use dual deploy/tracking in the things that i build and since im in OKC i have Argonia, Kansas not to far away so AirFest is always an option and a few other launches around me that are in excess of 20k AGL so for the most part i dont think that is an issue. At the moment i feel my biggest issue is finding a MD to start with that wont cost me an arm and a leg which wouldnt matter to me normally except the fact that if i mess up the build at all ill most likely never see it again which is why i dont want to start with the tomach.

#### DavidMcCann

##### Well-Known Member
if i mess up the build at all ill most likely never see it again which is why i dont want to start with the tomach.

Well the kit itself is $140.00 plus your recovery, and electronics. However you are likely looking at the same recovery and electronics if you go MD, or close enough. So the difference you are looking at is the price of the base rocket. If you really like the Tomach and follow the same path as rcdude (Kyle) then you can use the same rocket for your L2 so your TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) will be pretty low, lower than if you work your way up to it. One thing to consider if you build one of the 38mm MD rockets. Personally I have built two 38mm MD rockets, a GLR Mariah 38 and one of the original carbon fiber Mongoose 38s which is OOP. Although the basic building techniques are the same, the electronics and recovery can be a bit more of a challenge simply due to the space constraints...at least it was for me. #### Dragoon ##### Rocket Addict Well the kit itself is$140.00 plus your recovery, and electronics. However you are likely looking at the same recovery and electronics if you go MD, or close enough. So the difference you are looking at is the price of the base rocket. If you really like the Tomach and follow the same path as rcdude (Kyle) then you can use the same rocket for your L2 so your TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) will be pretty low, lower than if you work your way up to it.

One thing to consider if you build one of the 38mm MD rockets. Personally I have built two 38mm MD rockets, a GLR Mariah 38 and one of the original carbon fiber Mongoose 38s which is OOP. Although the basic building techniques are the same, the electronics and recovery can be a bit more of a challenge simply due to the space constraints...at least it was for me.
To be honest with you i had no idea they even made a mini Tomach all i knew about was the 54 and 98mm versions

#### DavidMcCann

##### Well-Known Member
To be honest with you i had no idea they even made a mini Tomach all i knew about was the 54 and 98mm versions
It's not a mini. It's $140 for the fiberglass 54mm The carbon fiber one is$400.

#### Dragoon

You can scratch build one for pretty cheap. I built this 29mm MD with Blue Tube and a fiberglass nosecone. Too small to put an altimeter in it but it sims at over mach 1 on a G250.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...her-29mm-Minimum-Diameter&p=639379#post639379
Sooooo ive been reading all the responses one by one and doing research as i go and i just got to yours and i must say that rocket is awesome looking especially for being scratch built my builds have gotten much better really quickly due to a member in the club thats been teaching me but my painting skills are somewhere between a -3 and a -1 on a scale of 10 compared to your painting

#### mpitfield

##### Moderator
Staff member
Global Mod
Sooooo ive been reading all the responses one by one and doing research as i go and i just got to yours and i must say that rocket is awesome looking especially for being scratch built my builds have gotten much better really quickly due to a member in the club thats been teaching me but my painting skills are somewhere between a -3 and a -1 on a scale of 10 compared to your painting
Yeah but Nathan has an unfair advantage, he is actually a robot as there is no way a human could finish a rocket that well...just ignore him.

#### jasonp

##### MEMBER
look at Carolina Composite Rocketry Charlie does great work

#### Dragoon

Yeah but Nathan has an unfair advantage, he is actually a robot as there is no way a human could finish a rocket that well...just ignore him.
So in the matter of things yet to be achieved how would one go about becoming a robot like Nathan lol

#### blackbrandt

##### That Darn College Student
We have yet to figure that out. If you make any progress on that though, let us know. It's been driving us insane ever since he joined.

#### Dragoon

We have yet to figure that out. If you make any progress on that though, let us know. It's been driving us insane ever since he joined.
Ill get to work on the right away........in the mean time i have to build my Darkstar Jr. Although mine will be called the Bio Star once its done

#### Mendal

##### Well-Known Member
I would go with a 38mm thin-wall fiberglass kit of your choice with dual deploy and leave out the motor mount. You can find a number of good options here: https://www.madcowrocketry.com/thin-wall-fiberglass-16/ and here: https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ShowProducts.aspx?Class=463&Sub=1182.
I'm new to the concept of MD so I'm enjoying this thread. If you leave out the MMT what happens to the TTW fins? do you just cut them back to the inside diameter and glue the fins into the slots?

#### blackjack2564

##### Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's
TRF Supporter
I'm new to the concept of MD so I'm enjoying this thread. If you leave out the MMT what happens to the TTW fins? do you just cut them back to the inside diameter and glue the fins into the slots?

Yep.

#### mpitfield

##### Moderator
Staff member
Global Mod
Ill get to work on the right away........
Don't go down that road as you may have to sell your soul, best case it will drive you nutz!

I'm new to the concept of MD so I'm enjoying this thread. If you leave out the MMT what happens to the TTW fins? do you just cut them back to the inside diameter and glue the fins into the slots?
Basically the fins become surface mounted. Have a peek through the forum for some MD build threads, BlackJack is one to look at as well as Jim Jarvis who provides a lot of detail on his methods and methodology.

Keep in mind that this is somewhat subjective so there is a bit of discussion about the best way to attach your fins. The conversations covers everything from epoxies, best practices using epoxies for best adhesion, surface mount vs. a quasi TTW, fin preparation for maximum surface bonding area, fillets, aero-heating, T2T layups, T2T under vacuum, etc.

Bottom line, there are many methods and materials to consider but like most of this hobby many opinions on the subject, especially when it comes to the general topic of just enough (engineering) or use the "best" and over-build.

In the end just do what you have means to do and do what works for you, so long as you follow common sense and safety first.