QUESTION About DOORKNOB Details . . .

[Ez2cDave]

Does any data exist showing the details inside the 12 openings in the Doorknob airframe, near the top of the Fins ?

I know that it uses the motor from the Lacrosse.

I think that there may be some type of bolts / fasteners which are accessed through those openings.

Dave F.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Hmm . . . Apparently, this data may be hard to come by.

Dave F.

 

[Bruiser]

There's just not much out there on the Doorknob. Not that I can find anyway. Been thinking about a two stage so I've been looking.

-Bob

 

[judo]

Dang! Is that a picture of scratch Doorknob I built I few years back. That simulated rail guide looks familiar.

 

[PhlAsh]

Also note that, in Dave's pic, the leading taper of the fins is not a uniform width from the root to the tip. This was depicted in one of the G.Harry Stine images I posted elsewhere (I'm at work, so I can't find/post it right now)

 

[Buzzard]

I would imgine that they are opening to bolt the fin can assembly to the rocket motor endcap.

Chas

 

[Bruiser]

"depicted in one of the G.Harry Stine images I posted elsewhere"

I'd like to see that if you can find it

-Bob

 

[Scott_650]

I don’t remember where I found this info n the Doorknob - the drawings are, of course, by the redoubtable Peter Alway. FYI I didn’t scan or swipe these so if Mr. Alway happens across this post I apologize for breaking any copyright or fair use rules - I have a special change jar setup just to save up for the next version of ROTW when he gets it done

 

[samb]

I don’t remember where I found this info n the Doorknob - the drawings are, of course, by the redoubtable Peter Alway ...

Interesting. The Alway drawings have 'Sport Rocketry Sept/Oct '99' along the side margin. I went to the publication archive on nar.org and found the article written by Mr. Always collaborator, Richard Morrow. A current NAR membership gets you access to the Sport Rocketry archives.

 

[PeterAlway]

Scanned from the NAR magazine. I am aware of two errors. First, the black fin of the 1-stage version should be below an orange quadrant, not a white quadrant. Second, the STA-65.5 tube joint in the two-stage version is wrong (it was wrong on my source drawing); it should be drawn a few inches farther forward, at 60.5.

 

[PhlAsh]

"depicted in one of the G.Harry Stine images I posted elsewhere"

I'd like to see that if you can find it

-Bob

Scott has posted the images from the article and correctly attributed the drawings to Peter Alway (and authorship to Richard Morrow). Sorry, but I cross-pollinated the article with a HoJo article written by Stine (credited as "G. Harry Stein"). Here's the link to that article... https://www.airplanesandrockets.com/rockets/honest-john-sep-1968-aam.htm

Now I need to annotate Peter's comments in this thread into my mark-up of the article...

 

[Ez2cDave]

Scanned from the NAR magazine. I am aware of two errors. First, the black fin of the 1-stage version should be below an orange quadrant, not a white quadrant. Second, the STA-65.5 tube joint in the two-stage version is wrong (it was wrong on my source drawing); it should be drawn a few inches farther forward, at 60.5.

Peter,

The image of the two-stage DOORKNOB appears to NOT have the rectangular openings at the top of the Fin Can of the Upper Stage. Your drawing has the rectangular openings on BOTH stages.

( 1 ) Do you have dimensions for the rectangular openings, themselves ?

( 2 ) Do you have a clear photo of the two-stage DOORKNOB, to confirm the presence of the openings on the Upper Stage ?

Dave F.

 

[CTimm]

Clear as mud?

 

[Ez2cDave]

Clear as mud?

Chris,

Yep . . . They are definitely on both stages.

Do you have any data on the dimensions of those openings ?

Dave F.

 

[judo]

No dimensions, but I do have a source. I got my drawings from Peter Alway's Rockets of the World 2002 Supplement. The images are annotated: Single and two stage Doorknob Vehicles, system drawing. Figure 25 from unidentified report, provided by Dick Hay, Sandia National Labs Hawaii Test Facility. Diagrams by Hermann a Wente and Harold Vaughn.
I remember a close up photograph of the vents while searching for Lacross motors.

 

[Ez2cDave]

I remember a close up photograph of the vents while searching for Lacross motors.

All of the Lacrosse photo's I have seen do not have the openings. HOWEVER, these LACROSSE pics are somewhat different, yet still unlike Peter's data or the Doorknob photo's.

http://data3.primeportal.net/artillery/david_lueck/mgm-18_lacrosse/images/mgm-18_lacrosse_03_of_78.jpg

http://data3.primeportal.net/artill..._lacrosse/images/mgm-18_lacrosse_09_of_78.jpg

http://data3.primeportal.net/artillery/david_lueck/mgm-18_lacrosse

 

[PeterAlway]

Two-stage doorknob depicted in the Sport Rocketry article (photo and drawing) appears to have a metal band over the tail can openings, You might guess that it's a drag-reduction thing.

 

[PeterAlway]

The Lacrosse missile has a larger diameter than the doorknob. I assume the Lacrosse was made with an oversized airframe with the motor inserted inside it.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Peter, is there any dimensional data for the openings on the Doorknob ?

I have only seen a couple of Black & White photo's . . . How was the Fluorescent paint scheme documented?

I sure wish there were better photo's available . . . Do any color images exist ?

Dave F.

 

[CTimm]

Do any color images exist ?
Dave F.

Color images DO exist.
I have seen only two.

There are many more but you would have to gain access to Sandia National Lab's photo archive.
Good luck.
The color scheme has been documented via written note from Mr. Wente to Mr. Morrow.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Color images DO exist.
I have seen only two.

There are many more but you would have to gain access to Sandia National Lab's photo archive.
Good luck.

Chris,

Where have you seen color images ?

What is the procedure to see the Sandia photo archive ?

Dave F.

 

[CTimm]

Chris,
Where have you seen color images ?
What is the procedure to see the Sandia photo archive ?
Dave F.

I already posted two snippets of one of the color pics to show the "holes" on each stage.
It is of a different round and not covered in Sport Rocketry nor RotW.
The other pic is a scan of a fuzzy 35mm slide of a launch.

Have you tried contacting Sandia?

 

[Ez2cDave]

I already posted two snippets of one of the color pics to show the "holes" on each stage.
It is of a different round and not covered in Sport Rocketry nor RotW.
The other pic is a scan of a fuzzy 35mm slide of a launch.

Have you tried contacting Sandia?

Chris,

I have located contact info for Sandia in New Mexico and California. I will call them on Monday. Also, I am investigating how to do any necessary FOIA requests.

I was hoping for clear images, showing a lot of detail . . . Can you please post the full color images ?

Dave F.

 

[CTimm]

Chris,

I have located contact info for Sandia in New Mexico and California. I will call them on Monday. Also, I am investigating how to do any necessary FOIA requests.

I was hoping for clear images, showing a lot of detail . . . Can you please post the full color images ?

Dave F.

Not without a RELEASE FOR PUBLICATION from Sandia.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Not without a RELEASE FOR PUBLICATION from Sandia.

Chris,

How did you obtain the photo's ?

Did you use a FOIA request ? If so, which Sandia office did you contact ?

Dave F.

 

[Bruiser]

Reminds me of when the USAF released the first photo of the F-117A. Very blurry and no one could really make out much. Same as those photos that Chris posted earlier. Pretty much worthless other than suggesting there are better ones out there.

-Bob

 

[CTimm]

Chris,

How did you obtain the photo's ?

Did you use a FOIA request ? If so, which Sandia office did you contact ?

Dave F.

Sandia Public Affairs (or whatever they call it).
They have "media" contacts at several locations.
Even they can't get Sandia to let them access the archives.
They suggest going the FOIA route.
Good luck with that as you will be sending the FOIA to a nuclear branch of the government.
Prepare for a symphony of crickets.
Closest tactical method would be getting ahold of a retired engineer who worked on the program in question.
Most are deceased by now. The estates generally toss everything afterwards.
Good news is that the photos are there.
Bad news is that we will never be able to access them.
Now they are thinking of disbanding the entire archive function due to costs.
But don't let that stop you from giving it your best shot!

 

[Ez2cDave]

Good news is that the photos are there.
Bad news is that we will never be able to access them.

Chris,

How did you, personally, obtain the photo's ?

Dave F.

 

[CTimm]

Chris,
How did you, personally, obtain the photo's ?
Dave F.

That's classified.

 

[Ez2cDave]

No dimensions, but I do have a source. I got my drawings from Peter Alway's Rockets of the World 2002 Supplement. The images are annotated: Single and two stage Doorknob Vehicles, system drawing. Figure 25 from unidentified report, provided by Dick Hay, Sandia National Labs Hawaii Test Facility. Diagrams by Hermann a Wente and Harold Vaughn.
I remember a close up photograph of the vents while searching for Lacross motors.

Do you have that photo or have a link to it ?

Dave F.