Pythom Space is Playing with Fire, Attracting the Wrong Sort of Attention

[OverTheTop]

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...ts-rocket-with-questionable-safety-practices/
"One area in which Pythom appears to be saving personnel costs is its safety and mission assurance department. On March 19, the company conducted a hold-down test of the first stage of its Eiger rocket with a single engine. (The complete first stage will have nine small engines.) The company uploaded a video containing this footage about three weeks ago and posted it on Vimeo.

Lasting about 2 minutes and 40 seconds, the video shows a number of instances in which Pythom employees appear to be handling the Eiger rocket and its hypergolic propellants (furfuryl alcohol and nitric acid) with less than industry-standard care. At one point in the company's promotional video, a handful of employees can be seen running from an expanding cloud of dust and exhaust."

 

[Jim Hinton]

One would hope that they will seize the opportunity to become a safety oriented project, before somebody dies.

Jim

 

[mikec]

Not only that but they're in California and I'd be surprised if they have any permitting whatsoever.

 

[Antares JS]

...Is this a joke?

 

[boatgeek]

The comment thread is truly epic. I think my favorite went something like "the one guy running upwind is the propulsion guy who knows what nitric acid does to a person's lungs. The two guys running downwind are the mechanical guys who know what shrapnel looks like."

Also, one of the first-page comments provides a link to a test burn (which doesn't appear to have produced significant thrust). The safety briefing consists of "Fire is going to come out there. Nobody should stand there." Countdown to ignition goes "... 5, 3, 4, 2, 1..."

One would hope that they will seize the opportunity to become a safety oriented project, before somebody dies.

At least according to the Ars article, several people contacted them about the safety issues and Pythom basically told them to buzz off. I think the best hope for now is that any number of three- and four-letter agencies get involved and save them from themselves. Nobody involved with this project should have their hands on the propellants involved (or probably anything more dangerous than a paper clip).

...Is this a joke?

Apparently not. If it is, it's pretty elaborate.

 

[Zeus-cat]

My club keeps people further away when launching an I motor.

 

[krislhull]

There is a lively discussion about this on Twitter.



One person posted a response from Pythom when they were emailed a question about their safety practices… the response was basically “STFU and mind your own business”



There is also another video that shows them testing their motor inside a trailer, and the trailer appears to catch fire…

 

[cerving]

Guessing they couldn't get a date at FAR... I don't think Rick and Mark would have let them conduct their "tests" there. Listening to the motor, it sounds like there's some serious pogo'ing going on... it sounds like a buzz bomb.

 

[GlenP]

Not only that but they're in California and I'd be surprised if they have any permitting whatsoever.

gosh, in the state of CA they’d probably already have been exposed to chemicals that are known to cause cancer.

 

[Zeta]

they got your attention and that is probably what it was about, crazy videos get attention and get paid

 

[StreuB1]

Neat


Watching the video at the end. I initially thought that was Rod and Randa. LOL!!!! Would be par for the course I guess....


Darwinism is real

 

[StreuB1]

Listening to the motor, it sounds like there's some serious pogo'ing going on... it sounds like a buzz bomb.

That is flame front oscillation due to a really poorly designed injector and incorrect chamber length. It was constantly on the verge of blowing itself out.

Not uncommon for acid and alcohol.

 

[krislhull]

Reading about these guys even further, and looking into their website some more, I am shocked they have not blown themselves up yet. In one post in the UPDATES section of their website, they brag about how they make their own nitric acid from stump remover in the woods.


Nice.

 

[b.wieting]

In the first moments I thought they were going to exploit the natural bowl, vacate equipment and people, and remote control from the reverse slope of the far ridge... but no. Should get out my HAZWOPER book.

 

[Rocket501]

My college rocketry team stumbled across these Pythom morons last year. It's so frustrating as California has strict laws for amateurs (which we follow) and then we have these absolute idiots managing to get away with this.


Video of one of their tests on Jan 12, 2021

Back in January 22, 2021, we marvelled at, "Witness the 1950's approach to safety, the fact that the engine is just a glorified flamethrower without proper combustion, and the atrocious cinematography" and speculated about what laws they were breaking. Some other funny things to consider is they released this video thinking it made them look good under the original title, "Hell Yeah!" Noteworthy too is loading homemade WFNA on a ladder with only a single respirator to be seen.

We also found: https://www.pythomspace.com/team/ were looking at the personnel of the time, they were all thrill-seekers. At that time, they had a single mechanical engineer and no chemists.

We have photos of them making the nitric acid. Witness the lack of PPE while working with concentrated sulfuric acid:

They got their initial 500k investment from a venture group known as "Space Cowboys". Yes, I am not making this up.

Afterwards, we forgot about them for a bit and I assumed they got shut down or something and then we get this latest video from March and it seems that they haven't learned a thing.

Edit: Some other things to note. The title of the video states it was in 2021, while the video card says 2020. I think it was actually 2021.

I don't hold this against them, but I think it's a little funny that they counted down 5...3...4...2...1...

 

[Cape Byron]

My backyard LPR launches have more safety protocols in place than this crew.

And must you use the truck as a winch? Seriously?

 

[teepot]

My guess as to what they are up to is make money on YouTube. That abomination was not a rocket motor. Not even close. I wonder how much of the seed money was actually spent on the flamethrower and how much went to the actors.

 

[Brian H.]

Negating the fact that the motor tested was was nothing more than an over glorified flame thrower providing virtually no thrust. The hazards involved are not shielded by Walmart kitchen gloves

I pray that this does not come down on the regulated rocketry community with bad light.

 

[rocket_troy]

Am I the only one with an overwhelming sense of deja vu from Jan 21 here? Same conversation (albeit on arocket), same Pythom, same flame, same incident?

TP

 

[Grog6]

If no one knows, that stump remover is potassium nitrate; it makes dilute nitric acid. Concentrating it does not interest me in the least.money from investors, and you can't buy 50 gallons of concentrated nitric?
I'm kinda hoping it's fake.

 

[viney266]

The comment thread is truly epic. I think my favorite went something like "the one guy running upwind is the propulsion guy who knows what nitric acid does to a person's lungs. The two guys running downwind are the mechanical guys who know what shrapnel looks like."

^^^ That was absolutely fantastic. I thought, how about just not be there, but yeah. That's great! I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Grog6]

it's all fun and games until someone gets sprayed with propellant that they were pressurizing with those nitrogen tanks.

 

[Tech 68]

Not only that but they're in California and I'd be surprised if they have any permitting whatsoever.

Considering California's State Fire Marshall "Rockets Level 1, 2, & 3" requirements, I seriously doubt anyone in the group holds a ticket, much less a Level 1 required for a firing officer. It's pretty obvious why this didn't take place at FAR or the MTA. Looking at the site, I suspect the Bureau of Land Management had no idea what they were up to, either.

 

[Peartree]

Considering California's State Fire Marshall "Rockets Level 1, 2, & 3" requirements, I seriously doubt anyone in the group holds a ticket, much less a Level 1 required for a firing officer. It's pretty obvious why this didn't take place at FAR or the MTA. Looking at the site, I suspect the Bureau of Land Management had no idea what they were up to, either.

"It must be okay because we're in the middle of nowhere. Right?"

 

[StreuB1]

To note.............the distillation method using sulfuric acid and a nitrate salt is a well established, cheap, reliable, and a repeatable method of making high concentration nitric acid. It might look sketchy, that's because doing it on a small scale is pretty easy and scaling it up is actually quite difficult. Doing it outside like they are doing is preferred. They are likely doing it "in the woods" so they aren't immediately seen by the general public and confused to be meth heads. It's also the safest way to assure you don't create pockets of NOX which can happen indoors and without a fume hood.

Full disclosure, this is how I make my acid and how everyone else makes their acid when they cannot afford to buy commercial acid. I actually make my acid white, then make NTO and using those two, I make RFNA. This is the only easy way to make RFNA of a known concentration outside of a commercial facility. I use commercially available chemicals though of known purity. While stumpout and drain cleaner works, its not very professional looking.

Do not try this at home......the word dangerous is not even in the dictionary when it comes to doing this kind of stuff. NOX does not have to be visible in the air to be dangerous. It will still kill you even when the area has "aired out" and is no longer visible. A respirator is not even good enough. You should have a seperate air supply; DO NOT USE A PAPR RESPIRATOR!!!!!

If you are making it, and are outdoors, you should also have fans in a side-draft configuration with care taken to never be in a position where you create recirculation with the location of your body and the NOX recirculates into your person.

 

[prfesser]

Considering the equipment they've shown in the photos and the motor in operation, I have my doubts that they are making all the WFNA needed for the motor. The glassware shown is adequate for making sub-liter amounts of acid, not so good for making the gallons required for testing. Making a little at a time and storing it has its own problems; WFNA and RFNA are horribly corrosive to most metals unless the surface is passivated. Hauling around large glass containers---if they had them---is a really good way to get killed if the container cracks on handling.

I used WFNA exactly one time, in an advanced organic lab. Got a tiny droplet on the back of my hand. Hand under running water within two seconds. The scar has faded over the last (almost) fifty years.

I think those who have suggested that they're doing this mainly for YouTube hits, and ***** and grins, are correct. If they continue, no doubt they'll FAFO. ("fool" around, find out)

Best -- Terry

 

[boatgeek]

Making a little at a time and storing it has its own problems; WFNA and RFNA are horribly corrosive to most metals unless the surface is passivated. Hauling around large glass containers---if they had them---is a really good way to get killed if the container cracks on handling.

There was another video of them decanting [some liquid] from what looked like 2-5 gallon glass jugs sitting in a Rubbermaid tote with minimal packing between the jugs. If you had told me that the jugs formerly contained apple cider, I would have believed you--they had the same little ring handle at the top.

 

[jqavins]

Gee, the ability to wash apple cider out of a two or three gallon glass jug sounds like the smallest of things to worry about here.

 

[boatgeek]

Gee, the ability to wash apple cider out of a two or three gallon glass jug sounds like the smallest of things to worry about here.

I just assumed that you'd want a higher grade carboy for nitric acid than you could get off the shelf for cider. And that one might not be able to assume that there wasn't any residual sugar in the bottle or that the cider lid would work for nitric acid. Willing to be proven wrong, though!

 

[StreuB1]

You can buy cleaner for cleaning organics from glasswear from wine making and brew shops. Wine and cider carboys are fine for containing acid. The real issue is the chance for them breaking as they are not shatter proof. Painting the outside with Plastidip is a decent way of making them bump safe.

Easier way to clean carboys for acid use is to wash with hot water and dawn, continuous rinse with hot water for 3 minutes. Then rinse with room temp piranha solution. Then rinse again.