pyrodex v black powder

[north boy]

Was just having a conversation with a guy who has all the exsplosive certificates etc to buy black powder and I asked him how easy it was to obtain a certificate and he said "can you use Pyrodex as an alternative for home refilling rocket motors" ????

JS

 

[powderburner]

First, please note that detailed discussion of construction of rocket motors and design of propellant chemistries is a special subject limited to a restricted part of TRF.

Second, using Pyrodex in this manner may well appear on YouTube or other similar sources of reliable, highly authoritative technical analysis, but I am unaware of anyone who uses this product for a serious propellant. It does not have enough chemical energy (termed "Isp") and there are many other cheaper, more readily available, better understood (and more reliable) alternatives.

 

[north boy]

I relise that the materials are very explosive and hazardouse and I assure you that I am NOT considering starting messing about with what I dont know enough about in the first place. The guy asked me simply because you dont need a licence to purchase this product in the UK and if it was an alternative option to bypass the licence procedure. I already hold full firearms licencing so applying for another related licence wouldnt be a problem concidering black powder is used more dated firearms.

 

[powderburner]

I don't doubt you at all-

Just want to point out that, believe it or not, blackpowder products (and I mean actual GUNpowder, not BP substitutes like pyrodex) do not work very well by themselves as propellants for amateur model rocket motors. If you check into what Estes goes through to manufacture their products, you will hear about several additives that are necessary to achieve the final burn behavior and performance, and especially some pretty impressive manufacturing steps (like pressing propellants into motor cases with very high ram forces). Pyrodex works even worse for these applications, from what I have seen personally (only very limited testing).

Short version of the story: it really is true that it is far cheaper/simpler/faster/safer to simply purchase a pre-manufactured motor if you want to get good performance, reliable ignition and burn, and safe operation. If you just want to fly, just go ahead and buy.

The only reason I can see for legitimate DIY motor construction is research, which does not apply to 99 percent of the folks who think it would be cool to try (generally also the same ones telling you to "hold my beer, and watch this!"). Thus my snide YouTube remarks. (That was me trying to be humorous, not trying to slam you.)

 

[blackjack2564]

Are you wanting this for ejection charges?
Or making motors?

 

[north boy]

Basically I am a complete newbee here and was a curiouse question of re-filling motors but I think I have got the wrong end of the stick and asked a silly question lol. I was under the impression you could build your own motors which is incorrect and the question has been answered I think.

The re-usable cases you can buy you put say 2 E motor boosters in with a E standard engine for final burn which would mean the motor would hold 3 motors in total and you just dispose of them and then re use the re- usable motor housing.....

I am just trying to collect the basics of information on how things work and sorry for the odd newbee question lol :blush:

JS

 

[jpummil]

Almost...here's a video of someone putting together a reloadable case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0GsbQS7GKI&feature=player_embedded

And reloads may be purchased from various vendors. The case will work over and over again!

 

[troj]

Basically I am a complete newbee here and was a curiouse question of re-filling motors but I think I have got the wrong end of the stick and asked a silly question lol. I was under the impression you could build your own motors which is incorrect and the question has been answered I think.

My understanding of UK laws is that making your own motors, whether using black powder, Pyrodex, or anything else of that type is pretty strictly regulated. Hybrids are very popular there, for that reason -- the fuel is inert (plastic).

Have you considered hooking up with a club in the UK? A lot of us are in the US (thought we have some European members, who hopefully will help with this discussion), so while we know the technical answers, we're not so helpful on the legal ones.

-Kevin

 

[north boy]

I live north of Inverness so clubs up here are non existent Id think. I'm sure there are the odd rocket man but probably thin on the ground.

JS

 

[Cyril's Scribe]

You would be suprised, try checking over at rocketryplanet.com, the have quite a few UK members too.

 

[Zeus-cat]

I have used Pyrodex for ejection charges, but now have some black powder that I will be using. Although probably not as heavily regulated here in the States as it is in Scotland, black powder is surprisingly difficult to find. You can order it through the mail, but the shipping costs are as much as the powder for the quantities that I want. Pyrodex on the other hand is readily available in a number of stores.

One reason Pyrodex is more readily available in both places is that it is not as explosive as black powder. You can use Pyrodex for ejection charges, but you must be much more careful in how you make the charges. It only works for charges if packed in a specific way. Black powder can be packed very loosely and it will still explode.

Also, Pyrodex is also much less corrosive than black powder. Many people who loading their own ammunition prefer it over black powder for that reason. This is another reason you can find Pyrodex.

By the way, my wife and I have been to the north of Scotland twice and loved it. You certainly don't have to worry about rocket eating trees!

 

[Shade]

I have used Pyrodex for ejection charges, but now have some black powder that I will be using. Although probably not as heavily regulated here in the States as it is in Scotland, black powder is surprisingly difficult to find. You can order it through the mail, but the shipping costs are as much as the powder for the quantities that I want. Pyrodex on the other hand is readily available in a number of stores.

One reason Pyrodex is more readily available in both places is that it is not as explosive as black powder. You can use Pyrodex for ejection charges, but you must be much more careful in how you make the charges. It only works for charges if packed in a specific way. Black powder can be packed very loosely and it will still explode.

Also, Pyrodex is also much less corrosive than black powder. Many people who loading their own ammunition prefer it over black powder for that reason. This is another reason you can find Pyrodex.

By the way, my wife and I have been to the north of Scotland twice and loved it. You certainly don't have to worry about rocket eating trees!

The main reason black powder is hard to find in the US is 1) shipping costs
and 2) storage limitations on volume unless you have a Leup and a magazine
most stores just will not bother with the hassle.

I use the loose Pyrodex powder in my muzzleloader for hunting due to the
lower residue. Pyrodex however is not much better with corrosion, barrels
will still rust in a day or two if not cleaned. Availability and number of shot
between cleanings are the better benefits.

With black powder I get 1-2 shots before running a bore brush down the
barrel, with Pyrodex I can get 4-6 shots.

I make my own black powder, getting the potassium nitrate and sulfur is
easy here, and I make my own charcoal.

My results on are 10-15% less muzzle velocity between black powder and
loose Pyrodex and 15-25% less with the Pyrodex pellets for the same
charge weight of powder.

 

[fyrwrxz]

I live north of Inverness so clubs up here are non existent Id think. I'm sure there are the odd rocket man but probably thin on the ground.

JS

HOLY COW! I lived in Grantown-on-Spey! (actually outside of town on a farm) Are you anywhere close? I was telling my wife the other day how much I missed the steak and kidney pies the farmers' wives used to bring to town to sell. They were a favourite treat going into town. I was there when they got the first soft ice cream dispenser! Don't miss the slugs so much tho.. or hauling coal/firewood and water from the well.
I think you mite find a fellow rocketeer in Glascow, but I can;t remember his name. Keep coming back and we'll help you as much as possible to get into this great hobby.

 

[north boy]

HOLY COW! I lived in Grantown-on-Spey! (actually outside of town on a farm) Are you anywhere close?

Grantown-on-spey is a lovely part of scotland with good salmon fishing. Im even further up North a good 50 miles north of Inverness in a wee village called Bonar Bridge. There is a rocket club in Glasgow that I found but Glasgow is 4 hours drive away unfortunatly. Inverness might have a rocket club as it is classed as a city now lol so I'll see if I can find out.

JS

 

[powderburner]

Im even further up North a good 50 miles north of Inverness in a wee village called Bonar Bridge.

I thought all you guys over there were metric?

Seriously, if you can't find someone handy/close over there, by all means come right on back here. Don't be one bit bashful about asking questions, there is always someone else around here that can answer knowledgably.

One little goodie you may not know about is the "search" button in the blue TRF header. There is a mountain of info already presented in those old posts, all you have to do is fumble around trying a few keywords and you will have enough reading material to last through the winter...and summer...and the next winter.

Also, you can usually get help and advice on several other websites. Rocketry Planet has some good guys, there are many others too. But you still have to come back here to report---

 

[Scott Evil]

A 4 hour trip to fly rockets or communicate with like minded people is not uncommon. It's a rare hobby that involves a lot of regulations and hard to find areas where you can fly righteously.

You'll find the 4 hour trip worth your effort.

 

[nealkas]

Maybe you can be the village eccentric and advertise you are starting a rocket club.
Must at least a few bairns of all ages who might like to join you.

Just a wee notion...

 

[north boy]

Maybe you can be the village eccentric and advertise you are starting a rocket club.
Must at least a few bairns of all ages who might like to join you.

Just a wee notion...

I like that idea

JS

 

[bobkrech]

Grantown-on-spey is a lovely part of scotland with good salmon fishing. Im even further up North a good 50 miles north of Inverness in a wee village called Bonar Bridge. There is a rocket club in Glasgow that I found but Glasgow is 4 hours drive away unfortunatly. Inverness might have a rocket club as it is classed as a city now lol so I'll see if I can find out.

JS

I'm a bit partial to Scotland as my daughter went to the University of Stirling last summer to take a couple of courses. She really enjoyed it. I also looked up Bonar Bridge. It's very nice.

Below are some links to UKRA and some of the major clubs in the UK and Scotland. You might want to contact the "local" clubs to see if they have any members near you.

https://www.ukra.org.uk/

https://www.gbnet.net/orgs/staar/groups.html

Using BP or Pyrodex to make rocket motors is not something you want to do. There's much more to it than just pouring into a casing.

BP is an extremely fast burning propellent and it is extremely easy to ignite. That's why it's used for ejection charges.

Pyrodex(R) does not burn as fast as BP and is a little less easy to ignite. Because it burns slower than BP, Pyrodex(R) particles tend to move as they burn so they spread out if unconfined and much of the Pyrodex(R) may not burn if unconfined. Most folkd who use Pyrodex(R) put it in centrifuge tube with a couple wraps of tape to provide confinment.

If you search TRF fo Pyrodex you will get a lot of good information,

Bob

 

[New Ocean]

BP, pyrodex in a metal case = 7 fingers.

 

[bobkrech]

This is an ejection canister from Pratt Hobbies. They are plastic, not metal. You can buy them or make your own.

When you use Pyrodex(R) instead of BP, you use a couple of layers of electrical tape over the mouth to allow the internal pressure to build up so the Pyrodex(R) burns out completely.

https://www.pratthobbies.com/products.asp?cat=38

Bob