Quantcast

Propellant composition

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

Jordi Grau

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Hi all, I'm an student doing its final degree project in aerospace engineering. My project is to design a nozzle for the rocket that we do in our university, I have been gathering information but I can't seem to find the following:

Regarding Aerotech engines:

- Which composition is the Redline propellant made off? With the general composition I'm fine.
- As I'm starting my iterative design on an I600R engine, for a program that I use to calculate thrust curves I need the throat diameter as well as the most exterior diameter of the nozzle divergent part. I can't find any drawing or plan with the dimentions in it.

Thank you very much for any help that you can give me.
 

ECayemberg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
2,586
Reaction score
240
Hi all, I'm an student doing its final degree project in aerospace engineering. My project is to design a nozzle for the rocket that we do in our university, I have been gathering information but I can't seem to find the following:

Regarding Aerotech engines:

- Which composition is the Redline propellant made off? With the general composition I'm fine.
- As I'm starting my iterative design on an I600R engine, for a program that I use to calculate thrust curves I need the throat diameter as well as the most exterior diameter of the nozzle divergent part. I can't find any drawing or plan with the dimentions in it.

Thank you very much for any help that you can give me.
Not to be a downer, but look harder. The information you seek is in a single document in a logical place. If you can't find the throat diameter of the I600, I'd be concerned about the project as a whole...
 

cwbullet

Obsessed with Rocketry
Staff member
Administrator
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Global Mod
Joined
Jan 24, 2009
Messages
25,345
Reaction score
3,309
Location
Glennville, GA
Not to be a downer, but look harder. The information you seek is in a single document in a logical place. If you can't find the throat diameter of the I600, I'd be concerned about the project as a whole...
Concur.
 

slothead

Slothead Tom
TRF Supporter
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
248
Reaction score
36
Location
Frederick, MD
I've noticed a lot of YouTube videos on nozzle design including both convergent and divergent details. Do a YouTube search.
 

Jordi Grau

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Not to be a downer, but look harder. The information you seek is in a single document in a logical place. If you can't find the throat diameter of the I600, I'd be concerned about the project as a whole...
I thought a forum was for help, even if I found some values what does ensure me that they are correct? Having diferent information from diferent sources allows me to compare them and extract a conclusion. I wouldn't judge someone's project just by what they are asking, doing that instead of helping will make that person not ask for help again.
 

slothead

Slothead Tom
TRF Supporter
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
248
Reaction score
36
Location
Frederick, MD
Jordi,
Don't be offended. Propellant mixing can be a dangerous activity and many folks just want you to be safe. There are a lot of details involved in it and it is well worth your time to go researching those on your own rather than getting quick answers by inquiring of others. Obviously there is a time and place for that, but there is a lot you can learn on your own before you get that far. One of the things I have learned here is that unless you have a level 2 cert you can't get into the Tripoli experimental section (regardless of your qualifications).

Take care,
Tom
 

Bat-mite

Rocketeer in MD
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
10,749
Reaction score
1,545
Location
Maryland
Jordi,
Don't be offended. Propellant mixing can be a dangerous activity and many folks just want you to be safe. There are a lot of details involved in it and it is well worth your time to go researching those on your own rather than getting quick answers by inquiring of others. Obviously there is a time and place for that, but there is a lot you can learn on your own before you get that far. One of the things I have learned here is that unless you have a level 2 cert you can't get into the Tripoli experimental section (regardless of your qualifications).

Take care,
Tom
Not quite correct. US citizen and Level 1. Research forum is not affiliated with TRA.
 

Jordi Grau

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Jordi,
Don't be offended. Propellant mixing can be a dangerous activity and many folks just want you to be safe. There are a lot of details involved in it and it is well worth your time to go researching those on your own rather than getting quick answers by inquiring of others. Obviously there is a time and place for that, but there is a lot you can learn on your own before you get that far. One of the things I have learned here is that unless you have a level 2 cert you can't get into the Tripoli experimental section (regardless of your qualifications).

Take care,
Tom
Hey Tom,

Don't worry about me getting into propellants, I wouldn't dare go there without being prepared, I will only use propellant bought directly from the manufacturer. I am only designing the nozzle in order to replace the store bought one with mine.
I'm not from the US, I am from Europe. I am an aerospace student and I know where my limits are, specially when talking of explosives.

Thank you for clarifying,

Jordi
 

slothead

Slothead Tom
TRF Supporter
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
248
Reaction score
36
Location
Frederick, MD
Not quite correct. US citizen and Level 1. Research forum is not affiliated with TRA.
Wait a minute John, wasn't it you who told me "TRA allows research motors. Once you are level 2, you are allowed to mix and make your own motors."? Did I misunderstand? Or maybe my post wasn't as clear as it should have been.
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
3,368
Reaction score
656
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Wait a minute John, wasn't it you who told me "TRA allows research motors. Once you are level 2, you are allowed to mix and make your own motors."? Did I misunderstand? Or maybe my post wasn't as clear as it should have been.
TRA Allows a L2 flyer to mix and fly their own motors if they adhere to the TRA research rules. TRF (this forum) has a limit of L1 and US citizen for access to the research section. The 2 are not the same and have their own restrictions.
 

slothead

Slothead Tom
TRF Supporter
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
248
Reaction score
36
Location
Frederick, MD
Yep, I just looked at the post regarding Research Forum Access (I don't think I had seen it specifically before), and it's pretty clear. What you had told me before John was flying research motors based on TRA "approval". Thanks both of you for clarifying.
 

3stoogesrocketry

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
1,237
Reaction score
109
Hey Tom,

Don't worry about me getting into propellants, I wouldn't dare go there without being prepared, I will only use propellant bought directly from the manufacturer. I am only designing the nozzle in order to replace the store bought one with mine.
I'm not from the US, I am from Europe. I am an aerospace student and I know where my limits are, specially when talking of explosives.

Thank you for clarifying,

Jordi

So why would you be here looking for the nozzle information ? Simply purchase the reload and you will have the EXACT measurements for everything.

Eric
 

Jordi Grau

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
So why would you be here looking for the nozzle information ? Simply purchase the reload and you will have the EXACT measurements for everything.

Eric
Aerotech sadly doesn't ship abroad the US, explosives are not easy to buy from here
 

Steve Shannon

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
6,408
Reaction score
3,001
Location
Butte, Montana
Aerotech sadly doesn't ship abroad the US, explosives are not easy to buy from here
You should be able to order the nozzle separately from RCS, but your earlier reply that you would only use propellant purchased from a manufacturer seems to conflict with this one saying you cannot buy from Aerotech there. If you cannot buy reload kits and you won’t buy propellants from anyone but a manufacturer, that leaves you no choice, does it.
 

Jordi Grau

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
You should be able to order the nozzle separately from RCS, but your earlier reply that you would only use propellant purchased from a manufacturer seems to conflict with this one saying you cannot buy from Aerotech there. If you cannot buy reload kits and you won’t buy propellants from anyone but a manufacturer, that leaves you no choice, does it.
Hi, there's a conflict here because I amb designing the nozzle for the university rocket and the propellant is bought through them, with that I mean that I cannot buy the propellant directly (aside from the fact that aerotech doesn't ship abroad). As I work in the project but I'm not in contact with the providers I can not ask for the propellant.

Hope that helps
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
3,368
Reaction score
656
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Please understand that you need very good knowledge of the propellant properties in order to correctly design the nozzle or the reverse, you design the propellant for a case/nozzle. You can't assume that the propellant that the Uni obtained has the same properties as any vendor. Without knowing exactly the burn rate, exponent, etc. your nozzle can make a motor that produces no thrust or causes the case to over-pressure and fail.
 

Jordi Grau

Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Please understand that you need very good knowledge of the propellant properties in order to correctly design the nozzle or the reverse, you design the propellant for a case/nozzle. You can't assume that the propellant that the Uni obtained has the same properties as any vendor. Without knowing exactly the burn rate, exponent, etc. your nozzle can make a motor that produces no thrust or causes the case to over-pressure and fail.
Thank you about that I will make sure that the numbers are right, it's not the first rocket we are launching and we have very experienced people here. I know how dangerous it is, sorry if I made it sound like I had no idea about what I was talking about. I wouldn't dare let anyone lit the engine if I wasn't sure about it's safety.

Thank you all for your help
 

G_T

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
2,203
Reaction score
271
There are no guarantees on safety. Commercial motors fail. Distance is your friend. Lots of distance. Regardless, good luck on your project.

Gerald
 

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,721
Reaction score
314
Location
Stafford, VA
Wait a minute John, wasn't it you who told me "TRA allows research motors. Once you are level 2, you are allowed to mix and make your own motors."? Did I misunderstand? Or maybe my post wasn't as clear as it should have been.
TRA Allows a L2 flyer to mix and fly their own motors if they adhere to the TRA research rules. TRF (this forum) has a limit of L1 and US citizen for access to the research section. The 2 are not the same and have their own restrictions.
First TRA as nothing to say about mixing and making motors. Anyone can mix their own motors and TRA doesn't care. They have NO rules concerning making motors and they don't want anything to do with controlling the manufacture of motors.

The TRA rules concerning research motors apply to FLYING certain types of research motors at sanctioned TRA launches only. To FLY a research motor, the person that made the motor must be present and the person who is the flyer of record must be certified TRA level 2, along with other rules to ensure safety.
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
3,368
Reaction score
656
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
First TRA as nothing to say about mixing and making motors. Anyone can mix their own motors and TRA doesn't care. They have NO rules concerning making motors and they don't want anything to do with controlling the manufacture of motors.

The TRA rules concerning research motors apply to FLYING certain types of research motors at sanctioned TRA launches only. To FLY a research motor, the person that made the motor must be present and the person who is the flyer of record must be certified TRA level 2, along with other rules to ensure safety.
You'll notice I said "mix and fly" and not just mix. Anyone can mix a motor, stick it in the ground and burn it like a road flare all day long if they'd like. Once you want to fly it, TRA does have all kinds of rules.

Also, TRA along with NAR used to have a seat on the NFPA and I think they still do so that they can give input to 1125 and 1127 which has force of law in most locations in the US. Thus they do have some vested interest and control in the manufacture of commercial motors.
 
Top