Project Venn

[RocketRev]

Kanly. Very obscure but if you get it, you get it.

For those who don't get this "Kanly" notation.........you're really out of it! From one of the top 100 sci-fi books ever.

And speaking of "Kanly" How about "Vendetta"

Brad

ps: did I give it away?

 

[jqavins]

Nope. You didn't give away one little blessed thing.

EDIT: But Google did.

Also, the single word "vendetta" predates Dune by about 200 years, about half as long as the word "dune" does.

 

[RocketRev]

The three interlocking rings I believe are also a Celtic (or Keltic) symbol, also Borromean Rings meaning unity.

so Celtic Warrior or Keltic Invader or Voyager, or Borromean Bomb.

The Celtic symbol of the three interlocking circles was used incredibly early as a symbol of the three in one deity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of Christianity.

 

[jqavins]

The Celtic symbol of the three interlocking circles was used incredibly early as a symbol of the three in one deity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of Christianity.

And perhaps Maiden, Mother and Crone before that?

 

[beeblebrox]

I've thought on and off about ways to reinforce the top edge of a body tube to help prevent zippering. Insert a coupler won't do because it blocks the nose cone shoulder. Adding a sleeve at the top makes it ugly and adds a little drag. Soaking with thin CA helps, but I'm looking for better.

This morning I had the flash of inspiration when I read your latest post. Replace the top couple of inches with fiberglass tube. Just long enough that the coupler attaching it is below the nose cone shoulder. Those tubes are expensive, but one of them could be cut into enough lengths for a bunch of rockets. When a regular LP or MP shock chord hits the FG tube, you ain't never gonna get no zippers.

Wrap the outside of the tube with carbon fiber strands or fiberglass. Wrap the outside tightly with polyethylene sheet (The kind of plastic from ziploc bags) While the epoxy is still fluid. Let cure, you will have to sand the end of the tube afterwards. Painted it afterwards... There is a bit of a ridge, but for this particular rocket I don't care, however I could make a new 3D printed nose with a larger base to compensate.

 

[RocketRev]

And perhaps Maiden, Mother and Crone before that?

Quite probably the case, but there are so few written records and none that go back as far as the use of the symbols, that the research that's been done is pretty thin and frankly based too much on reading back into history what modern folks want to see rather than that for which they actually have evidence. What we do know is that the early missionaries for Christianity used what was already common in the culture as means for explaining difficult concepts like the Trinity. The guy we call Saint Patrick was in the forefront of these innovators with his use of St Bridget, for one example. Brigit (variously spelled) was a pre-christian Irish goddess who might very well have been a kind of trinity as she had two sisters also named Brigit. Brigit A was the goddess of wisdom and poetry, Brigit B was the goddess of healing, and Brigit C was the goddess of blacksmithing. Each was distinctly different, yet they all three had the same name, sort of like an Irish form of a trinity, that could very well have been the origins of the three intertwined circles of ancient symbolism. But there is no doubt whatsoever that St Patrick used this very ancient symbol of the three interlinked circles as a means of helping to explain the concept of the Trinity to the Irish whom he was attempting to convert to Christianity. As Patrick himself was Scottish and taken as a child to be a slave in Ireland, his roots are very Celtic from two sides of the Irish sea.

I share those same family roots on all three sides of the Irish sea: Ireland, Scotland, and England going back into the 1200's. So its my own ancestors who were using this symbol long before any of the written records that there may have been survived. Add in a little German to the mix and you know what you get? A really messed up ethnic background going back 300 years in this country and further back in the old countries. Anybody remember the old Heinz Catchup slogan, "57 Varieties"? I'm sure my genetic make up is about that much of a mix: 57 varieties.

Brad

 

[jqavins]

I share those same family roots on all three sides of the Irish sea: Ireland, Scotland, and England going back into the 1200's... Add in a little German to the mix and you know what you get?

An American.

 

[boatgeek]

This project stalled for a while because I need to paint the body tube before putting it into the fin can. Between cold weather and lack of time, it's been slow.

But, I have some progress! First of all, the current state of the fin can, tipped up a bit so you can see the colors. It still needs a couple of coats of clear coat on the carbon fiber to make that pop out, but the color is basically done. The BT-80 tube will sit nicely down in the middle of that center triangle.


Second, we're moving ahead on the rest of the paint/color scheme. The rocket's name will be "Moooo-Venn", with the Moo part in a black and white cow font and the Venn part in a solid "The future the way the future used to be" font from the 80's. Venn might have a rainbow color fade on it for good measure.


The piece de resistance though will be the Venn diagram just ahead of the name, as shown...


The rings will be colored to match the actual rings (red-orange-yellow-green-blue-purple), but probably faded a little to pastel tones so that the text shows up better.

 

[Old School Doug]

Arrrgggghhhhh!!! I knew I got the idea for this guy somewhere on this site. Oops.

 

[boatgeek]

Arrrgggghhhhh!!! I knew I got the idea for this guy somewhere on this site. Oops.
View attachment 501776

No worries! All the best ideas are stolen. Bonus points if you get yours flying before mine.

 

[Joshua Smith]

I think they might, but if only for the reason that it sounds like ur going to town on the paint scheme!

 

[OzHybrid]

Liked it so much it's printing now.

 

[jqavins]

Arrrgggghhhhh!!! I knew I got the idea for this guy somewhere on this site. Oops.

Musicologist Charles Louis Seeger, Jr. (December 14, 1886 – February 7, 1979) stated "Plagiarism is the foundation of civilization" (paraphrased be me and as reported by his son Pete).

 

[OzHybrid]

Liked it so much it's printing now.
View attachment 501799

And printed.

Added a nosecone....

Sending to the printer. Liking this lobed triangle design..... Printing with 0.6mm nozzle, 0.2 layers in natural ABS. single wall. Coming out well.

 

[boatgeek]

And printed. View attachment 501868

Added a nosecone....
View attachment 501891
Sending to the printer. Liking this lobed triangle design..... Printing with 0.6mm nozzle, 0.2 layers in natural ABS. single wall. Coming out well.

[shakes cane] I ask you, where's the craftsmanship with these newfangled printers?! Back in my day, we carved our fingernails into saw teeth and cut our balsa with that. And we liked it! Now get off my lawn!

Seriously, that looks great. I'm glad I could be an inspiration. The world needs more non-round rockets!

 

[OzHybrid]

Liked it so much it's printing now.
View attachment 501799

And printed.

[shakes cane] I ask you, where's the craftsmanship with these newfangled printers?! Back in my day, we carved our fingernails into saw teeth and cut our balsa with that. And we liked it! Now get off my lawn!

Seriously, that looks great. I'm glad I could be an inspiration. The world needs more non-round rockets!

You could get balsa in those days……. 6 hours in on the 8 hour print
Now printing the new horizontal method.

A swing test is going to be the only way to test this. Should be fun. Look out world, Norms got a rocket on a rope……

 

[bjphoenix]

That 3-lobed body tube and nose cone is awesome.

 

[OzHybrid]

Yes. I enjoyed the geometry challenge. It turned out well. Structurally it’s quite a strong shape. I gave it away today to one of the guys who appreciated it. Reckon it will be good on a D.
G64 version about to get started. That will be a keeper.
Let’s do it.

 

[OzHybrid]

Yes. I enjoyed the geometry challenge. It turned out well. Structurally it’s quite a strong shape. I gave it away today to one of the guys who appreciated it. Reckon it will be good on a D.
G64 version about to get started. That will be a keeper.
Let’s do it.

Which fin set?
Set 1


Or Set 2

 

[boatgeek]

Which fin set?
Set 1
View attachment 502191

Or Set 2
View attachment 502192

I think Set 1 is more likely to keep its fin tips after landing. I like the style a little better too.

 

[OzHybrid]

I think Set 1 is more likely to keep its fin tips after landing. I like the style a little better too.

Project selected. Scale factor 2.5 I think. Scale 2... Wouldn't fit. 1.3metres long..... Sections to be printed 4. Engage replicator........... Holodeck 3 for the sim package.....

 

[OzHybrid]

I think Set 1 is more likely to keep its fin tips after landing. I like the style a little better too.

Just remember if these break, it's all your fault..... Made a few sacrifices and got the print time down from 2 days to 15 hours. Of course that means if the 15 hour print becomes a ball of string it's then it will be 2 days and 15 hours it will have taken..... I had no real strong feeling on one or the other. You chose the structurally more sound design. It will have a thinner leading edge. 15 hours and we'll know if it was the right decision. Tried to PM you. Seems I'm not allowed to start a conversation with you....

Regards
Norm

 

[OzHybrid]

Just remember if these break, it's all your fault..... Made a few sacrifices and got the print time down from 2 days to 15 hours. Of course that means if the 15 hour print becomes a ball of string it's then it will be 2 days and 15 hours it will have taken..... I had no real strong feeling on one or the other. You chose the structurally more sound design. It will have a thinner leading edge. 15 hours and we'll know if it was the right decision. Tried to PM you. Seems I'm not allowed to start a conversation with you....

Regards
Norm

Only just fits. Would you like a set if it works? Really wish I knew which way round it was going to post a picture……..

 

[Joshua Smith]

Which fin set?
Set 1
View attachment 502191

Or Set 2
View attachment 502192

FWIW, I was also going to vote for #1

 

[jqavins]

FWIW, I was on the fence. I like the look of #2 better, but the fin breakage point is at least as important. In case this should be done over for whatever reason, I propose the bottom of #1 and the top of #2.

 

[OzHybrid]

FWIW, I was on the fence. I like the look of #2 better, but the fin breakage point is at least as important. In case this should be done over for whatever reason, I propose the bottom of #1 and the top of #2.

I think the fact the sun rises here before you guys has scuppered your chances of a change. I upscaled the original by 2.4 factor. It’s now 1.6 m high and halfway through printing. Will have a BT80 core. That’s half of the 763mm of nose cone on top. I’ll fibreglass the outside of the ring. 800 of body and the fin can is 169 high furthest part of ring is 145 from center so 290 dia volume wise ish.

2nd half of nosecone is on printer now.... Very happy with this printer now it's had it's deficiencies resolved.
Main changes I've made are dual drive extruder, nickel plated copper block, 0.6mm nozzle and a couple of small changes to the vertical guides. ( not much really) Just about to increase print height from 390 to 500mm actual.

Update 30/1/22. And magically 8 hours later.


No body yet it’s being printed. That’s just the full nose cone. I’ve created a monster. First flight might be an H 70 hybrid.……

 

[boatgeek]

Clearly I need to move forward on this before @RocketScientistAustralia fills the entire design space.

I made pretty good progress on this yesterday/over the weekend. First of all, I took the bold step of ignoring the temperature and humidity requirements on the can of spray paint. When am I going to see >50 degrees/less than 80% humidity again anyway? April? Damn the torpedoes! So I primed the body tube, put CWF on the spirals, sanded while all the while cursing my decision to fill spirals, primed again, sanded a little bit, and then painted it all gloss white. It looks pretty decent. Oh, and before starting any of this, I taped off three sections where I'm going to glue the body tube to the fin can. I don't want to have to do any masking once the parts are all glued together. That gets us to Saturday.

Yesterday, I took advantage of my wife being at work until 8pm to take my life into my own hands. At lunchtime, I glued the body tube into the fin can and also glued the shock cord to the motor mount. System 3 T-88 in case anyone cares. Why is this taking my life into my hands? Because I needed the T-88 to be fairly warm so I did the gluing on the kitchen counter. Yes, that is a freshly-baked loaf of home-made bread in the background. Anyway, the shock cord was fairly standard. For the body tube, I pulled the tape mentioned above, spread glue, and inserted the tube with the glue toward the three points of the inner ring. Then I rotated the body tube so that the glue met up with the body tube. This way, the glue doesn't all get scraped off by sliding the tube into the fin can. Adjust the length so the fin can hits first, and Bob's your uncle.


No epoxy on the countertops, so I went down to the garage for the rest of the event after dinner. I have never done a full fin can assembly in one batch of epoxy before. It worked, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it. This was also complicated by wanting to add a section of coupler and a slightly smaller section of stiffy coupler above the top centering ring and extending into the body tube so that the body tube is less likely to crumple right at the top of the fin can. However, the body tube squashed a tiny bit to fit into the fin can, so the coupler no longer fit. No problem, I just need to slice it longitudinally and slice a tiny bit off. Oh, and the tube was a little triangular, so I had to sand down the centering rings to fit. Once that was ready and everything dry fit properly, I did the following:

• Spread clear epoxy on the inside of the body tube where the coupler would land
• Spread clear epoxy inside and out of the coupler
• Spread clear epoxy on the outside of the stiffy coupler
• Spread a tiny bit of thickened epoxy over the area of the body tube where the coupler would go
• Slid the coupler almost into place
• Swore a bunch trying to get the seam to line up and the coupler laying flat against the body tube
• Got it mostly in place, then slid in the stiffy coupler
• Spread thickened epoxy just behind the couplers so that they would have a solid connection to the forward centering ring
• Filleted the forward centering ring to the motor mount with thickened epoxy
• Slid the motor mount and forward centering ring mostly into place
• Swore a bunch trying to get the centering ring to push evenly against the couplers and have everything the right depth in the rocket
• Filleted the aft side of the forward centering ring against the body tube
• Spread thickened epoxy on the MMT and body tube where the aft centering ring will go
• Slide the aft centering ring into place. Much less swearing
• Dry fit the motor retainer to make sure it was the right depth (rocket sits firmly on the fin can, but the retainer isn't recessed any further)
• Filleted the aft side of the aft centering ring
• Glued on the motor retainer
• Started swearing again because the shock cord (tucked away neatly into the MMT) had slid into the mess of epoxy at the motor retainer
• Pushed the shock cord forward, only to have it land in the epoxy that slid forward from the couplers
• Put a small screw eye in the garage ceiling above my workbench so that I could pull the shock cord tight while the epoxy cured, preventing it from sticking to the body tube.

All of this in a little over an hour. It was ... stressful. Anyway, here's what it looks like now.

 

[jqavins]

Why is this taking my life into my hands? Because I needed the T-88 to be fairly warm so I did the gluing on the kitchen counter. Yes, that is a freshly-baked loaf of home-made bread in the background.

Y'know what else is in the kitchen? Waxed paper, bakers' parchment, cling wrap, and/or aluminum foil. I can see, in point of fact, that bakers' parchment seems to have been used, to a small degree. It can be used, you realize, to a much greater degree, providing ample counter coverage. And freshly baked bread, as well as other food items, can be moved away. Use of these simple techniques would have considerably reduced the risk to your counter and life.

 

[boatgeek]

Y'know what else is in the kitchen? Waxed paper, bakers' parchment, cling wrap, and/or aluminum foil. I can see, in point of fact, that bakers' parchment seems to have been used, to a small degree. It can be used, you realize, to a much greater degree, providing ample counter coverage. And freshly baked bread, as well as other food items, can be moved away. Use of these simple techniques would have considerably reduced the risk to your counter and life.

Baker's parchment was used to protect the countertop, though it was actually the dedicated parchment paper that lives in the epoxy bin and not the kitchen supply. I'm usually pretty neat with epoxy (except for always dipping the #$%^#$ shock cord in it), so there wasn't really that much risk to life or marriage. The bread and other foodstuffs were well clear of the danger zone. I wouldn't endanger the bread--we have moral standards in this house.

 

[boatgeek]

OK, everyone, I'm starting to lose my nerve. Help me either stand strong or avert a stupid mistake. The difference, of course, is a matter of perspective.

I've received the stickers from Mark at Stickershock. Beautiful work, reasonably priced, and quickly received, all as usual. He did exactly what I told him, plus added a few extra copies to make it up to the minimum print job. The stickers look like the images below, except even better in real life. The rest of the rocket, except for the fin can, is plain white.




The original idea of the project was to have the name running vertically, bottom to top near the bottom of the rocket, with the Venn diagram above, right side up with the rocket on the pad ready to fly. There would be some black cow patches around the rocket in the "Moo" section. A family member who shall remain nameless looked at the stickers on the table and asked "You put so much work into making something really cool here. Why would you make it silly?" And that's where my confidence in my dad-pun name completely collapsed. I polled a couple of other family members, and they basically came down on the side of using the original name, largely on the grounds that the rocket itself is pretty silly, and the name doesn't make that much difference.

So I'm opening this up to the wisdom of the internet*. Which of the following are your preferred options?

A. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead! Stay the course with the current name.
B. Tone it down to 8.5, cut out two O's, and make it the Moo-Venn
C. Cut the "Venn" part out of three of the name stickers and put them around the rocket in an approximate spiral pattern, roughly aligned with the largest sections of the rings.
D. Rethink and get a new name sticker made.

* It will not be named "Venn-y McVennFace