Project Long Shot - 3 Stage Black Powder Fun

[RobertH3]

I started this 10.00 project last winter and lost interest for a while. The box of parts looked sad and dusty so I finished it up. Basically a 29mm/24mm/24mm minimum diameter model. Used a 29 thick wall for S1 and instead of worrying about aerodynamics, just stepped it to 24 with a 29mm - BT50 centering ring and a short piece of BT50.

Plan is F15-0 / E12-0 / and my last good (2/3 successes) E9-8 I have been hoarding. Rocksim predicts 6500-7300' depending on Cd. Max speed of 784 fps. With Estes motors this deserves an LMAO, best part is total impulse (104Ns) and peak thrust make it a mid-power launch. Rocket will be covered with reward and phone number sharpie and I will let a JL Altimeter 2 go ballistic and hope for the best. Would love a pic of the JL2 reading something ridiculous for Estes motors.

Going 29-24 on S1 turned out pretty good - pleased with that. Biggest hurdles are S1 sturdiness (F15 casing is heavy). I used a thick wall 29mmt tube and 1/8" basswood papered fins with glue prime, glue rivets, and paper reinforcing hinges. Went for sturdy vis fluttery fall - this may not turn out well...we'll see. I put the 1/4" lug on S1 so no standoffs required. The motors all overhang quite a bit so she should stay together : )

S2 is nothing special - just a BT50 min dia stage, again with 1/8" basswood fins, papered and reinforced just like S1 to take the landing smack.

S3 is a BT50 with a BMS coupler sleeve up to the payload section as engine block. This may be needed for flight stress (I had an Apogee Aspire that buckled on a spiral) but I really needed a strong cord anchor. The biggest problem with the design is ejection speed - you really need a 10 second delay on the S3 motor. Speed at deployment is over 100 fps and so Kevlar cord tied through the body tube and sleeve along with a lot of elastic. Nylon streamer - they don't do much for fall but are sturdy and visible.

Here's a pic of Long Shot sitting on a nice display stand I built for an HPR, and pics of the S1 build. Should be an entertaining vanishing rocket, super entertaining if I get it back.

Cheers / Robert

 

[ZEDL1]

Gutsy...I like it.
Best with your flight.

Jim

 

[Ez2cDave]

Plan is F15-0 / E12-0 / and my last good (2/3 successes) E9-8 I have been hoarding. Rocksim predicts 6500-7300' depending on Cd. Max speed of 784 fps. With Estes motors this deserves an LMAO, best part is total impulse (104Ns) and peak thrust make it a mid-power launch. Rocket will be covered with reward and phone number sharpie and I will let a JL Altimeter 2 go ballistic and hope for the best. Would love a pic of the JL2 reading something ridiculous for Estes motors.

Cheers / Robert

Robert,

That 8-second delay on the E9 will be way too short . . . You might want to consider disabling the Ejection Charge and using an altimeter for upper stage deployment. ( I suggest dual deployment, due to max. altitude ).

Dave F.

 

[RobertH3]

I know on the delays. Is there anything that will fit in a BT50 with battery? I know there's a payload bay for BT60 at Semroc. How do you disable an ejection charge on an Estes motor, just have it kick out? If so, long long fall....
I thought out several scenarios - dual streamer deploy w/o shock cord for payload section and upper stage body, and a really really long cord also... The upper stage is sleeved with BMS coupler so it's pretty strong.
The only other answer would be a Farside X clone upper stage with a 50-60 transition and true dual deploy, charge wells at both ends.

Cheers / Robert

 

[Ez2cDave]

Is there anything that will fit in a BT50 with battery?

There are altimeters that fit into BT-20's . . . Be sure to get one with dual deployment.

Dave F.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

8 delay will be fine. It won't go too fast with the E9 sustainer. Use a streamer. Adding an altimeter will greatly increase the cost. In my rack rockets, I use a -6 delay due to the draggy design. 4 stage F15

 

[RobertH3]

Looked entertaining, very slow takeoff!
Will be a low/no wind day.

Cheers / Robert

 

[Ez2cDave]

8 delay will be fine. It won't go too fast with the E9 sustainer. Use a streamer. Adding an altimeter will greatly increase the cost. In my rack rockets, I use a -6 delay due to the draggy design. 4 stage F15

Looking at at you video, it looks like you shed a fin or two prior to the ignition of the 4th stage. Did you get it all back ?

Dave F.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Looking at at you video, it looks like you shed a fin or two prior to the ignition of the 4th stage. Did you get it all back ?

Dave F.

That one came back. No damage beyond the expected scorching. The 3rd motor does have to travel 13" to exit the rack so it can bounce around sone.

 

[Ez2cDave]

That one came back. No damage beyond the expected scorching. The 3rd motor does have to travel 13" to exit the rack so it can bounce around sone.

There was severe tip-off & corkscrewing at 4th stage ignition ( made me think some fins were missing ).

Dave F.

 

[BABAR]

8 delay will be fine. It won't go too fast with the E9 sustainer. Use a streamer. Adding an altimeter will greatly increase the cost. In my rack rockets, I use a -6 delay due to the draggy design. 4 stage F15

Love the Rack rocket. I have to laugh, some people including a number on this forum raise their hackles when you talk about ejecting an 18mm casing!

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Love the Rack rocket. I have to laugh, some people including a number on this forum raise their hackles when you talk about ejecting an 18mm casing!

OK per the safety code, NOT OK per the contest code.

 

[BABAR]

OK per the safety code, NOT OK per the contest code.

Absolutely. But I am talking Sport Rocketry, and some people act as if dropping an 18 mm motor casing is like freely ejecting a steel nose cone.

 

[DaHabes]

Robert,

That 8-second delay on the E9 will be way too short . . . You might want to consider disabling the Ejection Charge and using an altimeter for upper stage deployment. ( I suggest dual deployment, due to max. altitude ).

Dave F.

Use an Eggtimer Apogee altimeter in the nose cone. Always deploys at Apogee. Its easy to build. I have 2.....

 

[Tractionengines]

+1 on the Eggtimer Apogee (with a couple long "flashy" streamers for recovery.) Bird deterrent from Lows is red and silver and very reflective.

 

[DaHabes]

I have 1" silver and gold mylar "bird" tape from Amazon. 500' for $11. That's a lot of streamers....

 

[BABAR]

How about a rolled streamer?

if rolled loosely, it should fully eventually deploy, but it will take some time (and more importantly drag) to fully Unfurl, that plus some long and strong elastic and a good antizipper device

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/blaines-kevlar-anti-zipper-using-foam-ear-plug.154996/
Credit @BlaineS

may help decrease the shock of high speed deployment.

@rklapp has had good recovery results from visibility standpoint with long chrome silvery streamers, not sure if they are made from emergency blankets.

hope you have a remote launch site. If sustainer doesn’t light, you have a very small rocket starting point possible outside of visual range,HOPEFULLY within your launch field, coming in very fast. Very difficult to see and avoid even within a controlled launch area.

you have a similar and potentially more dangerous situation if it weathercocks.

I am expecting a great flight, but we are responsible to be prepared for fecal turbine interactions.

hope you get three straight trails!

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

How about a rolled streamer?

if rolled loosely, it should fully eventually deploy, but it will take some time (and more importantly drag) to fully Unfurl, that plus some long and strong elastic and a good antizipper device

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/blaines-kevlar-anti-zipper-using-foam-ear-plug.154996/
Credit @BlaineS

may help decrease the shock of high speed deployment.

@rklapp has had good recovery results from visibility standpoint with long chrome silvery streamers, not sure if they are made from emergency blankets.

hope you have a remote launch site. If sustainer doesn’t light, you have a very small rocket starting point possible outside of visual range,HOPEFULLY within your launch field, coming in very fast. Very difficult to see and avoid even within a controlled launch area.

you have a similar and potentially more dangerous situation if it weathercocks.

I am expecting a great flight, but we are responsible to be prepared for fecal turbine interactions.

hope you get three straight trails!

I use the 2” Mylar rolls and cut up emergency “space” blankets into 4” strips. The Mylar blanket seems to hold up better than the roll. I’ve learned not to roll them in the rocket but bunch them so it springs open.

 

[RobertH3]

Lol - basically a zero-wind launch is the only option for return. Anything over that = no launch.
Hopefully the weekend of 13 July she'll get to go. At present, payload section and main body (all 2 oz of it) are on separate heavy duty top-flite streamers. The main body streamer has an anti-zipper on it. We'll see... I like the earplug idea.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

5mph is okay because you know which direction it will weathercock into then hopefully return to the launch pad.

 

[BABAR]

I use the 2” Mylar rolls and cut up emergency “space” blankets into 4” strips. The Mylar blanket seems to hold up better than the roll. I’ve learned not to roll them in the rocket but bunch them so it springs open.

Cool. I was thinking that for “normal” deployments, you want instant open or as close as you can get.
In this case (high rocket velocity due to early ejection) I was thinking gradual unraveling of a rolled streamer might reduce the maximum force on the shock cord. As a by product while not dual deploy, also might reduce drift,although suspect effect on drift will be favorable but negligible.