Pro38 Bulletin - Forward Closure Failures

[WILDMANRS]

I checked my motors for the "bad" forward closure/delay elements but spotted nothing. Mine were all very smooth and had no wavy lines that I could see.

My candyman, Bay Area Rocketry, buys his CTI from the Wildman and I might have bought motors from October and December 2015 batches...dunno as I don't track my purchases. I will start writing the purchase dates on the CTI tubing from here on out.

Bay Area no longer buys his stuff from Wildman's and hasn't for over a year.

 

[thomas]

So if I have a motor with 2 date codes on it, it is safe to use?

 

[tim cubbedge]

So if I have a motor with 2 date codes on it, it is safe to use?

As Wildman said, date code has nothing to do with the forward closure failure!

 

[thomas]

He said if the reload has two date codes, one is for the delay.

 

[WILDMANRS]

He said if the reload has two date codes, one is for the delay.

If your reload has 2 date codes they should be labeled one starts with P and the other D. if the D is prior to 2015 I would feel safe flying it.

 

[WILDMANRS]

I just got off the phone with CTI.
We should have replacement 38 forward closures in hand ready to ship out to the customers in 3 weeks.
There are over 10 different forward closures depending on your reload so its not as simple as pull one off any 38 reload and put it on another one as someone suggested here earlier.
We are going to be working with CTI to get these into the customers hands as soon as possible.
Please don't send me a list of the reloads you have YET .
We will let you all know when we have them in stock and are ready to start shipping them out.
Your local Wildman dealers will also be able to give them to you at a launch .
Thank You for your patience .

 

[Banzai88]

I just got off the phone with CTI.
We should have replacement 38 forward closures in hand ready to ship out to the customers in 3 weeks.
There are over 10 different forward closures depending on your reload so its not as simple as pull one off any 38 reload and put it on another one as someone suggested here earlier.
We are going to be working with CTI to get these into the customers hands as soon as possible.
Please don't send me a list of the reloads you have YET .
We will let you all know when we have them in stock and are ready to start shipping them out.
Your local Wildman dealers will also be able to give them to you at a launch .
Thank You for your patience .

Best news yet. Thanks.

 

[T34zac]

I had one of these failures at Red Glare back in April. My motor was an I216. Luckily, and I may be the only one so far, the rocket survived the CATO, thank god for friction fit.

The first two photos are from someone who managed to get some excellent photos of the CATO happening.

 

[bobkrech]

[At URRF3 I purchased a Pro38 5G I540 from Kenny at Performance Hobbies. He was aware of the CTI document on identifying defective delays. Because the date on the reload was on the do not use list, Kenny opened up the I540 reload package and sure enough it was obvious the delay was a defective one. Then he opened up another Pro38 G motor made in 2013, removed that delay and put it into the I540 reload I was purchasing. No questions, no hassle, great service. CTI is sending all of their vendors boxes of good delays FOR WARANTEE REPLACEMENTS. In a very short time you should be able to go to any CTI dealer and get a replacement delay AT NO COST.

So did you launch the I540? The delay from the "G" motor was interchangeable and worked properly?

Yes. It was a perfectly normal flight and recovery. And yes the Pro38 delays are interchangeable.

 

[Ravenex]

I just got off the phone with CTI.
We should have replacement 38 forward closures in hand ready to ship out to the customers in 3 weeks.
There are over 10 different forward closures depending on your reload so its not as simple as pull one off any 38 reload and put it on another one as someone suggested here earlier.

Yes. It was a perfectly normal flight and recovery. And yes the Pro38 delays are interchangeable.

Two respected individuals with contradictory information...

 

[Banzai88]

Two respected individuals with contradictory information...

Not necessarily. There might be more to the story.

Mhanna's post didn't specify that he used motor ejection for deployment, so it's just as likely that he was using it from tracking smoke/back up, and that it was long enough as a full pellet to NOT blow before his flight computer set off a deployment charge.

Bob may be right, in that CTI delay grains/closures may be interchangeable WITHIN a given type of propellant, be it a 1G or a 6G motor.

Wildman/CTI's information seems to indicate that there are different flavors of delay grain for different propellant types, making CTI delay grains/closures NOT UNIVERSAL across the Pro38 line.

I'll await more information.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Not necessarily. There might be more to the story.

Mhanna's post didn't specify that he used motor ejection for deployment, so it's just as likely that he was using it from tracking smoke/back up, and that it was long enough as a full pellet to NOT blow before his flight computer set off a deployment charge.

Bob may be right, in that CTI delay grains/closures may be interchangeable WITHIN a given type of propellant, be it a 1G or a 6G motor.

Wildman/CTI's information seems to indicate that there are different flavors of delay grain for different propellant types, making CTI delay grains/closures NOT UNIVERSAL across the Pro38 line.

I'll await more information.

This is what it will be.

 

[T34zac]

From what I can tell, you can exchange them out with each other, as long as you don't care about motor ejection. AMW has also backed this up for me when I asked about replacing my forward closure on a suspected motor, they asked if I was using electronics and when I told them I was they told me they'll just give me any old closure that's good.

If you do need motor ejection, then yes it does matter. They all use 1.3g of black powder (according to CTI) but will have differing delay lengths based on the burn time of the motor.

That's just my guess though.

 

[woferry]

If your reload has 2 date codes they should be labeled one starts with P and the other D. if the D is prior to 2015 I would feel safe flying it.

That's certainly not the case for any of my reloads. I have a bunch with two date stamps, but none of them have any P or D markings, they're just dates. Most of the ones I have with two dates are Pro54 loads, I have one Pro38 with two dates (pictured, I255RL) but it shouldn't be affected anyway since it was purchased from BAR.

 

[Banzai88]

That's certainly not the case for any of my reloads. I have a bunch with two date stamps, but none of them have any P or D markings, they're just dates. Most of the ones I have with two dates are Pro54 loads, I have one Pro38 with two dates (pictured, I255RL) but it shouldn't be affected anyway since it was purchased from BAR.

View attachment 296240

That's how mine are, too, about a half dozen or so reloads of different flavors. 2 dates, no P or D. None in the affected date range, though.

 

[WILDMANRS]

This Chart should make it fairly easy to exchange delays.
The delays will come to the dealers in a color coded system.
I will post more as soon as its finalized .
We are hoping to have the replacements in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Hardline]

View attachment 296673
This Chart should make it fairly easy to exchange delays.
The delays will come to the dealers in a color coded system.
I will post more as soon as its finalized .
We are hoping to have the replacements in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks, Tim. This is handy

 

[soopirV]

This is going to be very vendor-specific, but does anyone have a good idea when new unaffected reload kits will be in stock? I saw through this thread that some vendors (Wildman comes to mind, may be others) will not ship suspect reloads without consent, but I am not aware of any plans from CTI to sequester any remaining suspect inventory, inspect and rework, and then resupply all vendors with known-good material...but maybe I missed a thread?

 

[bobkrech]

Not necessarily. There might be more to the story.

Mhanna's post didn't specify that he used motor ejection for deployment, so it's just as likely that he was using it from tracking smoke/back up, and that it was long enough as a full pellet to NOT blow before his flight computer set off a deployment charge.

Bob may be right, in that CTI delay grains/closures may be interchangeable WITHIN a given type of propellant, be it a 1G or a 6G motor.

Wildman/CTI's information seems to indicate that there are different flavors of delay grain for different propellant types, making CTI delay grains/closures NOT UNIVERSAL across the Pro38 line.

I'll await more information.

My info came directly from Anthony many years ago, however in the intervening years, CTI has developed an analogous line of mil-spec motors with much tighter tolerances.

When this topic came up in this thread, I checked with Anthony again, and while he was not aware of any changes, he did mention the mil-spec motors and that it could be possible that the production folks had switched to the more accurate mil-spec delays. I later received an e-mail from a CTI engineer confirming that CTI now utilize multiple delays in the 38 mm motor line.

While the original 1 delay fits all appears to have gone by the wayside, IMO it is likely that the most, if not all, of the new delays will meet the not very stringent NFPA 1127 specs which specifies a +/- 20% allowable variation with a minimum variation of +/- 1.5 seconds for delays less than 7.5 seconds to a maximum of +/- 3 seconds for delays longer than 15 seconds.

Bob

 

[mhanna]

I did not actually fly the suspected bad closure or switch it with another motor, I was just asking if you can. My flight would not have used dual deploy.

 

[T34zac]

So wildman's chart is helpful to me, since now I know I can use the delay from my I216 to replace the suspect delay on my I297 until the time comes that I can get a new delay to replace the suspect one.

Good thing my I216 is for LDRS 36 and not going to be burned anytime soon.

 

[Bat-mite]

I just pulled the closure out of my recent P38 purchase. My eyes are terrible, but my wife said she thinks it looks like the "bad" picture in the CTI bulletin. I am hoping AMW has a replacement for me come Saturday. If not, can I just epoxy it in?

 

[T34zac]

I just pulled the closure out of my recent P38 purchase. My eyes are terrible, but my wife said she thinks it looks like the "bad" picture in the CTI bulletin. I am hoping AMW has a replacement for me come Saturday. If not, can I just epoxy it in?

Call Gloria and ask her about it. I'm sure they'll help you out.

 

[rdh8]

We will have replacement delays for you John.
There has been a lot of discussion about motor availability from CTI.
Well we just received a 1000# pallet of motors at LDRS.
So don't despair.
Because AMW only carries CTI motors we have the largest inventory in the world.
And this is helping you through this time.
Attached is a picture of the bad delay(shiny) and good one.

 

[SpaceManMat]

Possibly more since you just added an aluminum bullet going up the rocket to the mix.

Perhaps a vendor can confrim with CTI if use of a aeroteck md retainer adaptor negates the need to replace the closure?

My thought is that this is a adhesives issue not a seal issue. If the adaptor supports the delay from failing then it should be ok. If on the other hand you screw the adaptor on and the delay falls out its probably not going to work.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Perhaps a vendor can confrim with CTI if use of a aeroteck md retainer adaptor negates the need to replace the closure?

My thought is that this is a adhesives issue not a seal issue. If the adaptor supports the delay from failing then it should be ok. If on the other hand you screw the adaptor on and the delay falls out its probably not going to work.

For All of the failures I've had to replace, no, that won't work...at least I wouldn't try it.

 

[Ravenex]

It is a seal issue, chased by an aggressive not dealing to the delay housing.

 

[graphex]

I lost my rocket and my L1 cert attempt to this issue last week. I knew of the problem (only read the CTI bulletin, not this thread, unfortunately) and had purchased my pro38 H152 from a dealer at the range the month before. Before my launch, I brought the motor to the dealer, showed it to him and was assured that because he was not included in the list of affected dealers, it should be fine, despite the DEC 30 2015 date code. I asked if there were any replacements for the bad components and was told there won't be. The ejection happened while still under power at 1.8 sec, completely zippering the body tube.

[video]https://youtu.be/tHH9yVK6co0[/video]

This whole thing is kind of a mess, and in my opinion, could have been handled better both by my dealer and CTI. Explicitly listing dealers that received bad batches seems to have made unlisted dealers think they're safe when they're obviously not.

The dealer was also my L1 attempt witness, and it also seems like I should have been able to at least get a replacement motor under warranty. After all, he saw the CATO himself of a motor from within the date range in the bulletin with his price label on it, which I explicitly brought to his attention just before my launch, and expressed my concern about this specific issue. If I were in his shoes, I feel like I would have at least offered to do a standard CATO warranty replacement after witnessing a L1 attempt shred on a motor I sold. Anyway, I'm trying to remain tactful and not name names here, but I think I'll be giving other dealers my business in the future.

There is a happy ending to this story. My new rocket was destroyed, but I also brought my Madcow Phoenix, which failed my L1 attempt last month by snapping a fin on touchdown. I got a bigger chute, repaired the snapped fin, flew it on an H125 classic with a date code from before the bad batch, and got my L1. The delay charge had an actual delay of 14.25 seconds, even though it was supposed to be a 12 second adjusted -3 to a 9 second delay, but thanks to a JL chute release it narrowly escaped another zipper. So I got my L1 on my 3rd flight, and the Phoenix dramatically rose from the ashes, just like I hope Cesaroni is able to do after a really terrible year.

 

[thomas]

How did the motor look like?
Was the whole forward end burned away?

 

[Ravenex]

This should be warrantied whether or not it was part of the defect.