Princeton University attempt at a suborbital space shot?

[Andrew_ASC]

Maybe they shoulda bought some of Jim’s boron motor starters.

 

[cerving]

Maybe they shoulda bought some of Jim’s boron motor starters.

I assume you mean Jim Jarvis, he was at Balls... flew his 3-stager to 160K. I'm guessing that will be the best altitude of the meet. I bet if they had asked him he would have given them an igniter...

 

[tim cubbedge]

I assume you mean Jim Jarvis, he was at Balls... flew his 3-stager to 160K. I'm guessing that will be the best altitude of the meet. I bet if they had asked him he would have given them an igniter...

Nah. He’s referring to crazy Jim’s (blackjack) igniter sale he posted earlier today.

 

[tim cubbedge]

I assume you mean Jim Jarvis, he was at Balls... flew his 3-stager to 160K. I'm guessing that will be the best altitude of the meet. I bet if they had asked him he would have given them an igniter...

Nah. He’s referring to crazy Jim’s (blackjack) igniter sale he posted earlier today.

 

[cerving]

Oh... I stand corrected. Didn't see blackjack's sale...

 

[blackjack2564]

Or just listen to me for the umpteenth time....use Boron pellets.

A 3stage project at balls went 160,000. 3rd stage lit with a custom pellet I made & pyro plug made by other Jim.
It's so cold up there 45,000 that heat transfer between igniter and grain is strained unless you use the right stuff. There are many methods...just look up military manual on all of their igniters.
Where I got the formula.

Same stuff as in sale, but just a pure pellet.
Actually been working on a low current version, cast on wire just for staging, that timers/altimeters will fire with 3.7 to 9v
Bitch soldering 40 ga nichrome, ya can't see the darn stuff....lol

So far really good progress, not yet 100%.

In last 3 months, I've had 4 teams contact me about this issue. Unfortunately none of them wanted to spend resources on the problem ...time.
.....which is what it takes to solve/make ignition work. They all were so far behind schedule, lucky to even fly & were just going for it.

I did take the time to explain heat transfer at altitude..all understood...just no time to make or work on ignition modules. 2 teams had tried to source same stuff I have, BUT you cannot get it shipped. You must pick up at warehouse.
Actually I would bet these teams could source Boron from their Chemistry dept. I know they can, but they did not want to go that route.

 

[JimJarvis50]

I assume you mean Jim Jarvis, he was at Balls... flew his 3-stager to 160K. I'm guessing that will be the best altitude of the meet. I bet if they had asked him he would have given them an igniter...

Actually, I did give TU Wien an igniter. It was for their booster though.

Jim

 

[JimJarvis50]

Cool! It's going to be exciting!

Semper Altius!

Yes, it was very exciting! There will be much to discuss, none of which is related to the Karman line.

Jim

 

[saadzmirza]

So anyone want to talk about what happened to Virginia Tech's Q-Q space shot attempt at BALLS this weekend? I heard it was bad.

 

[eggplant]

So anyone want to talk about what happened to Virginia Tech's Q-Q space shot attempt at BALLS this weekend? I heard it was bad.

There is a brief report on the Tripoli user forum. Sounds like the sustainer lit during prep and proceeded to CATO. I'll leave the rest for people who were there.

 

[pendrin2020]

edited: Off topic

 

[saadzmirza]

Hey eggplant, can't seem to find the Tripoli user's forum. Is it on this website or on the TRA website?

 

[tim cubbedge]

Hey eggplant, can't seem to find the Tripoli user's forum. Is it on this website or on the TRA website?

TRA website forum. Have to be member to access.

 

[Andrew_ASC]

Worthwhile read over on the Tripoli forum.

 

[plugger]

It'd be more worthwhile to the rocketry community at large if it were in a public forum. NAR and AMRS members don't have access to Tripoli's forum and yet we all could most likely learn from the issues encountered on the playa.

That said I'm less concerned about projects and more concerned about the possibility that someone got hurt. Fingers crossed everyone is OK after the weekend. That's what's most important imo.

 

[MClark]

There is a brief report on the Tripoli user forum. Sounds like the sustainer lit during prep and proceeded to CATO. I'll leave the rest for people who were there.

That is accurate as it was known shortly after incident.
I was at range head. Rocket was at away cell area, approximately half mile out. We heard the motor light, big dust/smoke cloud, much overlapping radio chatter then call there was no serious injuries and to send out certain people. I was told by away cell manager (as above) the sustainer motor lit horizontal while being integrated to booster, it struck the ground, tumbled not going extremely far.
It have no info on why the motor lit and will not speculate.

M

 

[plugger]

Thanks Mark. Glad to know there were no serious injuries.

 

[plugger]

Thanks Andrew. I'm very happy to hear the person that was medevaced out is OK. I had heard about that on Friday and hadn't heard an update since.

 

[pendrin2020]

It's being discussed in private for valid reasons. Incidents like this tend to bring about knee jerk reactions from people who'd rather eliminate something than regulate or oversee it. This needs to be handled with a fair amount of discretion. Don't cover it up, but don't get the sewing circles going, either. Please try to keep discussion of it in PMs with people who were there (I was not).

As I understand it, there were no injuries that required serious consideration. No one had to leave the event.

 

[plugger]

It's being discussed in private for valid reasons. Incidents like this tend to bring about knee jerk reactions from people who'd rather eliminate something than regulate or oversee it. This needs to be handled with a fair amount of discretion. Don't cover it up, but don't get the sewing circles going, either. Please try to keep discussion of it in PMs with people who were there (I was not).

As I understand it, there were no injuries that required serious consideration. No one had to leave the event.

Whereas I was told on Friday someone was airlifted to hospital via helicopter from the playa due to a sustainer igniting on the ground. The quickly posted and then deleted internal Tripoli forum thread stated this BUT also stated the person was released from hospital the next day and then returned to BALLS.

I'm unconcerned about who it was when compared to knowing that a) the person is OK and b) the mistake made is documented somewhere so it's not repeated. I've known about it for 3 days and didn't say a word publicly as it's not my place (I wasn't there) and I didn't have anything to comment about other than to say I hope everyone's ok. But now that this public knowledge is becoming more so the reasons for keeping it under covers so to speak aren't quite as valid as they were before.

 

[pendrin2020]

Yeah that was the first incident of the weekend.

 

[MClark]

First incident. When it happen there was a boom, much louder than a typical large motor ignition.
On site doctors (TRA members attending launch) were dispatched to away cell. Injured person was brought to a RV on flight line to await first ambulance and then helicopter.
Range was shut down until helicopter departed waivered air space.
I didn't hear two descriptions of what happened that matched.
Someone (in authority who should know) said victim was going to try to lauch his other rocket on Sunday.

M

 

[RGClark]

I think BKNO3 perhaps and Zirconium but Zr can be very dangerous and sensitive to static electricity when used in the ZPP form. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrotechnic_initiator
There's always "augmented" thermite but that can be as hairy as ZPP. I've heard of fliers making BKNO3 pellets and using it successfully and augmented thermite. None of which I'll
discuss details on the open forum. "Augmented" thermite is doctored so it has a lower heat of activation so it's easier to get it started. I was lucky I didn't hurt myself with the thermite
when I was experimenting with it (Would go off with an ematch at least in powder form). I've never progressed to staging so I abandoned further testing and never used it to light anything. Will Pyrodex work at altitude or no? Just wondering as
that would be the simplest remedy if it would work. Another thing would be an initiator to start some loose coarse propellant chips. In that case, would need a means to keep the chips in
a "bunch" to keep the G forces from breaking the ignition pack apart. Also maybe HEI (head end ignition) might simplify the electronics/igniter setup? Excuse me if I missed some details in the
earlier parts of this thread.

Oh, for fun I put a single 38mm cored grain on the ground and put a bit of 4f in there and an ematch. Stood back, pushed the button and just saw a flash and nothing else. Inspected the grain, made sure it was cool, put a bit of augmented
thermite in and an ematch. Pushed the button and the grain caught and burned. That was the limit of my testing. Doing it enclosed at high G's and at high altitude I know is another story. Kurt

Ignition of a stage with APCP propellant just during preparation at the launch site is very rare. Perhaps the Virginia Tech team used one of these methods to ensure ignition, and it was of a type that could ignite prematurely.

Bob Clark

 

[Steve Shannon]

Don’t know if you can read this. I’m new to Tripoli and will take the flak if they don’t allow uploading.

We don’t. Please delete that. We place things on the Tripoli forum to discuss them privately. Any lessons learned will be shared with the rocketry community at large. Anything that would require an immediate product or safety advisory would be coordinated with NAR and CAR to make sure it is widely available.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Ignition of a stage with APCP propellant just during preparation at the launch site is very rare. Perhaps the Virginia Tech team used one of these methods to ensure ignition, and it was of a type that could ignite prematurely.

Bob Clark

Please don’t speculate about things of which you have absolutely no knowledge. Join a bridge club if you just want to gossip.

 

[rfjustin]

Yes, it was very exciting! There will be much to discuss, none of which is related to the Karman line.

Jim

 

[RGClark]

Please don’t speculate about things of which you have absolutely no knowledge. Join a bridge club if you just want to gossip.

Understood.

Bob Clark

 

[Steve Shannon]

Understood.

Bob Clark

Sorry; I’ve dealt with a whole bunch of people who spout theories with no knowledge the last two days and my patience is exhausted. I’m not even in a position to correct speculation yet.
One of the reasons this kind of incident happened is because there are people with no practical experience egging on students to fly to space, either for monetary prizes or to gain recognition. Many of the posts you have made fall into that category. You’re not the only one, but you’re the one I focused my frustrations upon. Again I apologize.

 

[pendrin2020]

USC made their attempt yesterday. Motor ignited vertical but before any of the avionics were turned on. They deleted the video of it taking off from Facebook and aren’t releasing any information. I watched it happen live and the radios were silent in the stream. NO ONE knew it was launching. In the distance you could see dark shapes the size of SUV’s around the base of the rocket. No word on if anyone was hurt.

They can’t find the wreckage. Some of them are assuming it made it to space because they didn’t see it shred.

 

[Steve Shannon]

USC made their attempt yesterday. Motor ignited vertical but before any of the avionics were turned on. They deleted the video of it taking off from Facebook and aren’t releasing any information. I watched it happen live and the radios were silent in the stream. NO ONE knew it was launching. In the distance you could see dark shapes the size of SUV’s around the base of the rocket. No word on if anyone was hurt.

They can’t find the wreckage. Some of them are assuming it made it to space because they didn’t see it shred.

That’s a hell of an assumption.

 

[pendrin2020]

No kidding. It’s nigh impossible to get them to realize that as well. On Facebook they’ve practically decided it was a success, “but we can’t prove it”.