Postage Due question

[georgegassaway]

I'm posting this to ask for info, not to bash the postal service.

Hoping that someone reading this works for USPS or know from experience what happens if a package with a LOT of money postage due, is sent back to the sender. Here's the details:

So, I won an auction on eBay for a R/C model plane it, for $41, and "expedited shipping" of $21.

Today, it arrived Postage Due, for $41.23. Well, actually I do not have it, the local post office has it, I can't get it without paying $41.23 ransom.

Seems like the seller did the same stupid thing another seller did to a friend of mine last summer. Weighed the package, I guess, used "click and ship" type software to generate a postage label. But apparently did NOT measure the box to find out what the "dimensional weight" was, which made it cost $62.23. But the sender only paid $21 that their software generated as the postage.

So, the seller just drops it off at the post office, they do not check the postage there, it gets shipped 1500 miles or more, and they only check the postage when it's time to deliver it to me, of course.

Well, no way in (blank) I'm going to pay $62.23 for postage, I only agreed to pay $21.

And I did NOT need it ot be sent Priority mail, which is what they did. If they had shipped it regular, or by UPS or FedEx, it would have cost more like $21 than $62.23.

So, I've contacted the seller about this.

But now, my question, which I did not think of earlier. If I do not pay the postage due, and it is returned to the sender…… does the sender have to pay the postage due, or do THEY get it back "free"?

Because if they have to pay to get it back, then I'll have much better leverage to get them to just pay me the excess postage. Money-wise, if I returned it and got a refund, and they paid the $41.23 to get it back, they would have paid a little more than what I paid on eBay, but they also would lose more money for the listing and seller fees. So, they'd have the R/C plane back but would be out for something like $75 or so I guess with the fees added in.

They would also take a major hit when I give feedback because I am QUITE Ticked off by this.

They only way they are going to avoid major negative feedback is if they just reimburse for me to pay the postage due. This is a person, not a company, that has 100% positive feedback since 2006, so that gives me hope they will do the right thing. But if their first response is that they won't do the right thing, that gives me leverage to give negative feedback that would ruin their 100% rating. I've not even brought up the feedback thing, want to see what they say first.

But I also want to find out about what happens if I do not pay the postage due and it is returned to them, do THEY have to pay postage due to get it back (or possibly even pay extra because it was shipped back).

Of course, I can ultimately use eBay's system to get a refund. But then I won't have the R/C plane, which is OOP and this WAS a good deal. And it is intended as a Christmas present, that I'd complete building so it will be ready-to-fly for the person I give it to. But there's time for me to come up with something else if need be.

 

[DizWolf]

From the Domestic Mail Manual- https://pe.usps.com/text/dmm/P011.htm

=====================================================

1.9Undeliverable and Refused Shortpaid or Unpaid Pieces

Mail with insufficient postage that is refused by the addressee or otherwise undeliverable is:

a. Returned to the sender with the reason for nondelivery “Returned for Additional Postage” if First-Class Mail with a return address. The sender may affix the additional postage, cross out the reason for nondelivery, and remail the piece.

b. Returned to the sender and delivered when the sender pays the total deficient postage and additional postage for forwarding or return if other than First-Class Mail and with a return address.

c. Treated as dead mail if it has no return address.

===============



Priority is considered first class mail, So It should go as option A. He'll get it back, and can fix the postage. How long it sits there may vary unless you go in and refuse it, or call and do the same. They'll otherwise notify you at least one more that it's there, and that should have a final return date as unclaimed. You can however speed that up by refusing it.

Ebay sellers are notorious for this move. Dim weight has been around for over 5 years now.... They know what they are doing when they skip it. They're banking on the fact that most of the time it skips through, or people get stuck paying it. They also leave it for pickup, or leave it in a manner it isn't getting checked at dispatch.

 

[blackjack2564]

Over the years, I have had 2 instances of this happening, in over 200 packages I shipped.

1. I went to PO with address package was going to. Measured & weighed it, it was long... 35inches.
Notified buyer of cost. He pays the 22,00.
1 week later it shows up with postage due on my doorstep. Go to PO to argue over it. Counter person gives me bunch of crap, even though they did calculation and tells me I must pay another 22.00 +1.35 to re-send. I decide to go over to another PO in Town.[we have 5] I explain the situation, this person re-sends for free explaining not worth all the hassle & it was an honest mistake. I don't pay any additional fee.

2. package returned for insufficient postage. Only 35 cents. I pay the additional 35 cents plus original 2.00 and re-send. Not worth hassling with.

Both cases package was sent back to me free. Both cases the recipient was un-aware of situation. The PO never contacted them about additional monies needed. This seemed strange to me that packages both travel all the way from Georgia to California, and back again without anyone being notified till after the fact. But hey it's the PO, need I say more....LOL
Result: finding a sympathizing person goes along way to a resolution.

 

[DizWolf]

I'm confused on both wanting new postage there Jim. should have only had to add the difference. Arguing with a local clerk may get it back in the mailstream, and 90% odds it'll go though...but It may get grabbed by the destination clerk and looped back again. Not saying don't try, but be aware of that.

I used to pay small postage dues for my customers...then I realized I was spending over a $100 a year doing it. Still do a stamp here and there.

There are clear rules on what gets notified and what gets sent back and when and why.... but in practice, I see a crap shoot of responses. I know when we catch them locally, we attempt and notify if not at home. If we catch one outgoing, we kick it back to sender from our office. Trouble is the number of places it may get caught along the line, and the variety of people who may catch it.

 

[rharshberger]

I'm confused on both wanting new postage there Jim. should have only had to add the difference. Arguing with a local clerk may get it back in the mailstream, and 90% odds it'll go though...but It may get grabbed by the destination clerk and looped back again. Not saying don't try, but be aware of that.

I used to pay small postage dues for my customers...then I realized I was spending over a $100 a year doing it. Still do a stamp here and there.

There are clear rules on what gets notified and what gets sent back and when and why.... but in practice, I see a crap shoot of responses. I know when we catch them locally, we attempt and notify if not at home. If we catch one outgoing, we kick it back to sender from our office. Trouble is the number of places it may get caught along the line, and the variety of people who may catch it.

Personally I hate dim weight.... but that all that came in when the airlines got smart and realized space was the limiting factor, not weight. even more frustrating is the letter/flat/package breaks. Seems clear at first, but padded envelope under 3/4"? package. normal envelope, but rigid? package. Has to do with costs of sorting....but the breakdowns can be infuriating.

You sound like a Postal person....Umm, not really Postal but a Mail Carrier?

 

[DizWolf]

You sound like a Postal person....Umm, not really Postal but a Mail Carrier?

No idea what you're talking about

(second generation....20 years in ><, long story.)

 

[georgegassaway]

I got two replies from the seller/sender:

I don't blame you either.
Please let me check with ebay, because that what they said the postage was.*
Thanks for your patience

A half hour later, this follow-up reply:

Would you please get me the Post Office phone no. so I can straighten this out.* I would very much appreciate it.

I sent him the phone #, as well as pics of both sides of the notice that I got about the postage due.

So, we'll see what happens in that regard. Maybe he found out something with eBay that may prove why this was not supposed to cost that much, or perhaps he's trying to confirm the screw-up.

As for finding a sympathetic person, at least on my end here, no way. I was fortunate that I was at the door when the postman came, and I was surprised he had not gotten my package off his truck. He had the postage due slip, and told me the story. He had pre-sorted the mail for his truck, and my package was among it, about to be loaded. THEN his supervisor came by, saw the package looked oversized, checked the postage, and had it removed for postage due. If that supervisor had not come by&#8230;. I'd have my package right now.

I had a very bad interaction with that supervisor a few months ago when I was missing a time-critical package that the online tracking sent me an e-mail told me had been "delivered" earlier that day, but I didn't see it and thought it might have been mis-delivered to the wrong address (It turned out it had been delivered after all, someone at the house had set it aside). But, anyway, they insisted the postal service had no such thing as e-mail notifications of tracking status. I do not mean they said it in the sense that they were not aware of it, they were saying it like I was totally wrong (perhaps even lying?) and I could not possibly be right , insisting , with attitude, NO SUCH THING as getting ANY e-mails from the postal service! I returned their attitude in kind, informing them they needed to go to the USPS website, the tracking page, and see the link for getting e-mail notifications of tracking status so they could learn (bet they didn't, since of course there was no way I could be right). So, anyway, that is the person who got it pulled.

That does not excuse the original shipper for screwing up though.

Unless&#8230;.. it turned out the eBay Click and Ship postage was somehow correct and the supervisor screwed up by declaring postage was due if it actually was not (some companies get sweetheart deals, possibly eBay has one with the USPS, or whatever). It would be double-sweet if that happened.

BTW - if it had been a small amount of postage due, a few bucks&#8230;.. I'd have paid it right away and then asked the seller to refund the amount. But $41.23, no way.

- George Gassaway

 

[DizWolf]

Him calling the PO will straighten out zero. he's stalling you. Don't let him. There are zero options for negotiation with the PO. It's not that it's unlikely.... there is just no option for it. Over the phone, he can do nothing. Have him paypal you cash.

 

[georgegassaway]

Thanks for the reply. Unless he somehow does manage to get it straightened out, which as you indicate is highly unlikely, I'll ask him to Paypal the $ as you recommend before I pay the postage due.

Otherwise, its going back, I'll open a refund claim with eBay, and his 100% positive rating will be gone.

I'm willing to wait a few days for this to play out before it would go back automatically. But do need to start thinking of a totally different "Plan B" Christmas present. As it is, I was delaying buying a specific pair of ESC's this plane needs, at least I've not committed any more $ to the project. But soon I'll bump against the time for anything else ordered by mail, to arrive in time. Which is another reason to not even try to get another one of these planes from another source, it's either this one in hand in the next few days or send back, apply for refund, and think of something totally different for a present (Won't be another plane, this is a R/C model of his all-time-favorite, period). The only good thing is that he has no idea, so if it does not happen there won't be disappointment. Well, not on his side, but extremely so for me

BTW - The post office involved is a VERY small town one. So what the postman said about the package being pulled by the supervisor (before it went on the truck), after he'd sorted thru the mail to take on his route, is believeable, at least to me. He's not the sort of guy to BS about things such as this, and my previous interaction with that supervisor (that the postman does not know about) would support what he described. I could so easily imagine this supervisor personally checking, for whatever reasons, lack of trust in the mail carriers and/or not enough clerks on hand from 6:44 AM (package arrival) to 7:42 AM (out for Delivery) to do it.

- George Gassaway

 

[georgegassaway]

Update - RESOLVED.

The seller sent me the postage due amount via PayPal, so I'll go pick it up tomorrow, and give him positive feedback.

Earlier today, I went to the post office to check out the postage used on it and measure it. When I got back home, I found an e-mail he'd already agreed to refund me the postage due, by Paypal.

Turns out that he paid $10.72 shipping, $10.28 less than the listing said postage would cost (of course, people usually over-estimate shipping to help pay for the time and materials for packaging, which is OK within reason, and I had agreed to pay $21 shipping). So, the total of the postage was $51.95.

Actually had they gotten it RIGHT to begin with it would have cost $8 less due to online postage discount ($43.95).

I do not know what they entered in as the size, but they entered the weight as 3 pounds. The box weighed 6 pounds. Dimensions 43 x 12 x 9

Heck, if he had sent it "standard", it would have cost $37.13. Yikes.

FWIW - a pic of the postage label below, redacted.

Anyway, this problem solved. Thanks for the info and advice.

Hopefully getting this plane built won't be as much of a problem as getting it, period. Fortunately it does not need to be ready to fly by the 25th, due to weather he won't fly it till spring. I am not sweating out getting the right speed control for it in time. But I want to otherwise have it "built", with minimal stuff I'll do later "under the hood".

- George Gassaway

 

[tab28682]

Ok, George.....what electric aircraft model is this??....

 

[georgegassaway]

Ok, George.....what electric aircraft model is this??....

OK.... the old GWS A10 Warthog. Yes, I am aware of a number of issues such as upgrading from brushed engines to brushless, and reinforcing it. Fortunately a lot of good info on old RC Groups threads, and a new one I posted for more up to date gear. A better A-10 model..... out of my budget range. As it is I'm splurging on this one present this year compared to others, but I like to try to do at least one special present for someone each year.

The soon-to-be-recipient LOVES the A-10. He'd like to be a Warthog pilot someday. But unless things change with the planned phaseout (A whole Pentagon & politics issue not for this forum), by the time he'd be old enough and trained....the closest he's going to get to piloting an A-10 will be with an R/C model. Last summer after NARAM near Tucson, we drove past the "Boneyard" where there were hundreds of A-10's in storage, and he looked away as he was so sad about it. I'd considered doing this before, but that reaction made me decide to try harder to find one (within reason) to build and give to him

BTW - last year when he was being a bit bratty, I warned him that if he kept acting like that, he might get a lump of COAL for Christmas. And I gave him one. Then he said great, he wanted to light it on fire. Well, it would have cost a silly amount of money to get just one little piece of coal (like say $2 on eBay plus $3 shipping, for a joke worth no more than $1, or spend $3-5 in gas to drive to a place that might sell a piece for $1). So I had gotten a coal-shaped rock and painted it satin black, looked real enough. I should have let him try to light it on fire, but he did finally ask if it was a painted rock. Anyway, later I did give him his real present.

 

[kcobbva]

Love the A-10. An awesome bird to watch fly! I'm sure the RC will be fun!

 

[DizWolf]

Glad to hear it worked out.

See what happens when you order from SURPRISE, AZ?

 

[georgegassaway]

Glad to hear it worked out.

See what happens when you order from SURPRISE, AZ?

Heh, yeah. I did not crop out the city name in the label pic for that very reason.

 

[tab28682]

I still have an original GWS A-10 kit stashed back. I have seen one updated with modern 50mm EDF units with brushless motors and some extra carbon structural reinforcement added as needed. I maidened at least one or two for other folks back in the day on the original brushed motor EDF50 fans. Was underpowered, but still a great flying model.

Mine will eventually muscle it's way to the front of the build pile. Lots of good options for low cost 50mm fans these days.

Speaking of A-10s, I have seen several in the traffic pattern of JRB Carswell this week as I come and go from work.

 

[burkefj]

I really liked my A-10, used brushless motors but never saw the need to reinforce and never had an issue. The wheels were complete garbage though. It made a neat syncopated whine very much like the real A-10's...I pretty much flew split esses making attack runs.....

Frank