# Post Lawsuit Motor Prices

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#### tquigg

##### Well-Known Member
Okay, here's one for the group to discuss...

Now that the lawsuit is over, how will the ruling affect the end-cost price to consumers? Do you forsee the price of reloads to go down, remain the same, or go up?

Let the discussion begin!

Best Regards
Tim Quigg NAR62887 L2 TSO
BMR # 615
www.bmr615.org

#### MarkM

##### Well-Known Member
I don't see the prices changing. The cost of manufacturing and materials will not change. The price to pay for the LEUP for the manufacturers that already have one is miniscule compared to the cost of the materials and labor. There's really little that will decrease the price to make a reload following the court ruling, hence there's not much that enable a manufacturer to decrease the price of the reload and still keep his profit margin. Perhaps for a very limited time to celebrate the victory, some manufacturers may offer a discount on a 'bulk' purchase, but that's about it.

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#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
Okay, here's one for the group to discuss...

Now that the lawsuit is over, how will the ruling affect the end-cost price to consumers? Do you forsee the price of reloads to go down, remain the same, or go up?

Let the discussion begin!

Best Regards
Tim Quigg NAR62887 L2 TSO
BMR # 615
www.bmr615.org
Maybe I don't follow but why would the price change? I could see them being a LITTLE more competitive but in this day and age alot of comanies are treading lightly (IMHO)

Ben

#### Donaldsrockets

##### Well-Known Member
Not including national inflation, I see prices of reloads staying the same but I'm sure vendors will be selling more of them.

I see some of my income tax going for a few 29mm H reloads.

#### bobkrech

##### Well-Known Member
The costs will either remain the same or go up due to the bad economy. You have to remember that this ruling affects less than 5000 potential high power users. This is not a big market, and even if it doubled in size, the unit manufacturing cost would not change significantly.

The manufacturing costs have not changed, and the distributions have not changed, and if anything in reality the number of HP flyers has decreased because of the economy, so economics dictates that the prices will either remain the same if the demand doesn't change, or will go up to cover fixed costs if the demand drops. Fixed costs don't decrease when you have to reduce your production in response to a lower demand, so the unit cost, and therefore the retail price, increases in this situation.

Bob

#### abw

##### Well-Known Member
Do the hazmat fees still apply for shipping?

#### Donaldsrockets

##### Well-Known Member
Do the hazmat fees still apply for shipping?
Yep, sure does. Any motor with either a single grain weighing over 30 grams or motors with individual grains weighing (some 29mm and all 38mm and larger) over 30 grams requires HAZMAT $20 shipping. #### Garoq ##### Well-Known Member Yep, sure does. Any motor with either a single grain weighing over 30 grams or motors with individual grains weighing (some 29mm and all 38mm and larger) over 30 grams requires HAZMAT$20 shipping.
FedEx hazmat fees have now increased to \$22.50 per box FYI. We received no notice of the change until our bill showed up with the increase.

#### Handeman

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Maybe I'm optimistic, but I think the demand for motors will go up, even with the economy the way it is, and thus the price will also go up. I don't see the manufactures uping production until there is a proven increase in demand. When that happens, I expect the prices to stabalize at the higher level.

I think in a year from now, motors will be much easier to get, but more expensive.

#### El Cheapo

##### Well-Known Member
IMOP, which doesn't really mean much, is this ruling will not be a reflection of lower prices. Why in the world would a supplier drop their 100, 125, 150, 200% profit margin because of this ruling that is not, at this point, in effect. I have not idea what the margin's are on this type of product, I'm just guessing.

The only thing that may or may not drop pricing is if the mfrs. suffer significant loss in sales due to the currect economic mess we're all in. At that point, any profit is better than lost profit.

Thank you. Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Try the veal and don't forget to tip your waitress.

#### Pat_B

##### Well-Known Member
There's the simple issue of the rocketry organizations spending hundreds of thousands of dollars of their member's money for which the motor mfgs benefited. Would be nice for the mfg's to throw a bone in the direction of those members.

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
There's the simple issue of the rocketry organizations spending hundreds of thousands of dollars of their member's money for which the motor mfgs benefited. Would be nice for the mfg's to throw a bone in the direction of those members.
and some are. There are % off deals coming from some Vendors.

Granted they "jumped the gun" with it since there are 60 days left till we are home free.

Ben

#### jderimig

If demand goes up there is a chance there could be shortages or upward pressure on prices or offered discounts for a time.

If the ruling stands and the demand is sustained I would expect more entrants into the motor reload market, especially with the cross-compatible hardware pandora's box opened. The barrier to entry would be somewhat lower as you wouldn't need a LEMP to manufacture some propellant formulas and that relief will trickle down to somewhat less restrictions on the state/local level as well. You would still need to obtain UN EX numbers which would be a barrier to entry for some. The bottleneck would probably be certification testing.

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
If demand goes up there is a chance there could be shortages or upward pressure on prices or offered discounts for a time.

If the ruling stands and the demand is sustained I would expect more entrants into the motor reload market, especially with the cross-compatible hardware pandora's box opened. The barrier to entry would be somewhat lower as you wouldn't need a LEMP to manufacture some propellant formulas and that relief will trickle down to somewhat less restrictions on the state/local level as well. You would still need to obtain UN EX numbers which would be a barrier to entry for some. The bottleneck would probably be certification testing.
the only things you would need a LEMP to get are really fine chemicals or really large qtys of certain chems.

I do see there being more 24-38mm reloads coming out. But this fall I figure Pro29 will have a good 15-20 reloads and AT will have "filled out" motors in there 29 and 38 line like greens, reds and blues

Ben

#### jderimig

the only things you would need a LEMP to get are really fine chemicals or really large qtys of certain chems.

Ben
No actually that is not true. A LEMP is required only if you are manufacturing explosives, igniters, detonators etc as enumerated in BATFE regulations. There may be numerous other state/local and federal permits required around the use and storage of some particularly hazardous materials but a LEMP is not one of them.

Now some suppliers may required you to have a LEMP as a way of establishing your bona fides but that is their option and is generally not required if you can establish confidence with them that you are a legitimate and credible operation.

#### Porthos II

##### Well-Known Member
There's the simple issue of the rocketry organizations spending hundreds of thousands of dollars of their member's money for which the motor mfgs benefited. Would be nice for the mfg's to throw a bone in the direction of those members.
I thought we spent the money so our members would not require a LEUP, or have to fly under a club LEUP or another individuals' LEUP. Am I missing something? The flyer's dont benefit?

Erik

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
No actually that is not true. A LEMP is required only if you are manufacturing explosives, igniters, detonators etc as enumerated in BATFE regulations. There may be numerous other state/local and federal permits required around the use and storage of some particularly hazardous materials but a LEMP is not one of them.

Now some suppliers may required you to have a LEMP as a way of establishing your bona fides but that is their option and is generally not required if you can establish confidence with them that you are a legitimate and credible operation.
I was pretty sure to get magnesium finer than 100mesh you needed a LEMP. (along with some others, look at www.firefox-fx.com ) But that may pertain to FF only.

Ben

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
I thought we spent the money so our members would not require a LEUP, or have to fly under a club LEUP or another individuals' LEUP. Am I missing something? The flyer's dont benefit?

Erik
Your exactly right Erik. Its really a Win Win situation for manufacturere and users. They don't need to have permits like crazy which costs and the market they can sell to shrinks. And the end user can fly any motor they want without finding someone with a LEUP or worrying about storage.

Ben

#### jderimig

I was pretty sure to get magnesium finer than 100mesh you needed a LEMP. (along with some others, look at www.firefox-fx.com ) But that may pertain to FF only.

Ben
Yes, Firefox is operating under a consent degree with the CSPC. The LEMP rule for them was part of the settlement. Civil case, not criminal.

--john

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
Yes, Firefox is operating under a consent degree with the CSPC. The LEMP rule for them was part of the settlement. Civil case, not criminal.

--john
oh, good to know.

Ben