Poll: Should Junior Members of Tripoli or NAR Be Given More Freedom in High Power?

[Sparkyflyer14]

I thank you all for your time and responses! I have appreciated all your input and encouragement. It has been very helpful to hear both sides of the argument. I have gotten many insights from your replies. I interpret public opinion as that while there many be a few people who have the responsibility to have more freedoms, that doesn't represent the total junior community and it is more effective to just wait the few years until all can be done in accordance with the currant rules. After all, what is 2 or 3 more years (THAT'S LIKE FOREVER!) when we've got our whole lives ahead of us? And this is for a paper I am writing; I'm not trying to lobby either way. Again, thank you for all your feedback, you have given me lots of information for my assignment in addition to some plain wisdom.

Farewell...

 

[drgarymartinez]

Having worked with teenagers for the past 25 years, even at-risk teens & delinquents, I have a slightly different perspective than most. The Junior Level 1 Certification is a fabulous program. I personally have mentored and trained 14 over the past 2 years. I have also mentored 2 level 1 certs (ages 18). My juniors are far more knowledgeable than my 18 year old students simply because they had to prep for a test. But here is my point. The propensity to do risky things is higher among teens until the age of 21-24. While there are exceptions, rules must be made to govern the vast majority of teens. The program works as is. There is no need to change it. Every Junior cert should have a mentor who signs off on each and every flight, no exception. Even if NAR & TRA we’re to introduce a Junior level 2, no Junior flier should be allowed to fly HPRs unless it is signed off by and witnessed by his mentor. Accountability & supervision are not a restriction but rather protection. It is all about learning.

 

[cwbullet]

I thank you all for your time and responses! I have appreciated all your input and encouragement. It has been very helpful to hear both sides of the argument. I have gotten many insights from your replies. I interpret public opinion as that while there many be a few people who have the responsibility to have more freedoms, that doesn't represent the total junior community and it is more effective to just wait the few years until all can be done in accordance with the currant rules. After all, what is 2 or 3 more years (THAT'S LIKE FOREVER!) when we've got our whole lives ahead of us? And this is for a paper I am writing; I'm not trying to lobby either way. Again, thank you for all your feedback, you have given me lots of information for my assignment in addition to some plain wisdom.

Farewell...

You obviously have a deep passion for rocketry. Be patient and learn with a mentor.

 

[Bill Owens]

I think there's a great deal of discussion about what the law is and should be wrt 18 yrs of age. I see this as two issues - when should a person be able to buy and ignite (un-mentored) L2 or above, and when should a person be able to demonstrate the capabilities required for L2 licensing. To me it's a waste of time arguing about what the law should be, and anything not currently allowed under the law wrt age will likely not change.

I also think it is unfortunate for someone demonstrating the skills not being able to progress further in our hobby prior to 18. My son got his Jr. L1 at 14 and designed and built many HPR rockets before 18. At launches I always supervised him, but he was capable of CAD design, running sims, working with epoxy, testing BP charge amounts, calculating stability, programming altimeters, etc, etc. He certainly could have taken the L2 test, built a sound L2 rocket, and demonstrated all of the skills, but he could not do any of that until he turned 18. I wish there had been a "Jr L2" where he could have received the certification but still have been bound by a mentor constraint (wrt buy and launch) until 18.

 

[cwbullet]

I think there's a great deal of discussion about what the law is and should be wrt 18 yrs of age. I see this as two issues - when should a person be able to buy and ignite (un-mentored) L2 or above, and when should a person be able to demonstrate the capabilities required for L2 licensing. To me it's a waste of time arguing about what the law should be, and anything not currently allowed under the law wrt age will likely not change.

I also think it is unfortunate for someone demonstrating the skills not being able to progress further in our hobby prior to 18. My son got his Jr. L1 at 14 and designed and built many HPR rockets before 18. At launches I always supervised him, but he was capable of CAD design, running sims, working with epoxy, testing BP charge amounts, calculating stability, programming altimeters, etc, etc. He certainly could have taken the L2 test, built a sound L2 rocket, and demonstrated all of the skills, but he could not do any of that until he turned 18. I wish there had been a "Jr L2" where he could have received the certification but still have been bound by a mentor constraint (wrt buy and launch) until 18.

That brings up another legal challenge that people might want to research. I had a conversation about black powder with our local sherif. He is research it, but told me that he thinks it is illegal for a minor to buy or possess black powder in GA. You might want to check that with your local municipalities. My son helped me ground test my level two and three but I would never let him do that alone (not assuming you did).

A JR level 2 would have to have some clear rules to understand how that would work.

 

[Steve Shannon]

The Tripoli TMP allows a junior member from 12 - 17 to do anything their mentor is authorized to do, as long as it’s under the supervision of their mentor. Like NAR we don’t call it certification because that word has a special meaning in NFPA and we don’t wish to create confusion. When they turn 18 they have their L1.
I don’t understand why that’s not sufficient.

 

[boatgeek]

I also think it is unfortunate for someone demonstrating the skills not being able to progress further in our hobby prior to 18. My son got his Jr. L1 at 14 and designed and built many HPR rockets before 18. At launches I always supervised him, but he was capable of CAD design, running sims, working with epoxy, testing BP charge amounts, calculating stability, programming altimeters, etc, etc. He certainly could have taken the L2 test, built a sound L2 rocket, and demonstrated all of the skills, but he could not do any of that until he turned 18. I wish there had been a "Jr L2" where he could have received the certification but still have been bound by a mentor constraint (wrt buy and launch) until 18.

I would dispute the premise on this. There is plenty that a Jr. L1 can do to advance in the hobby prior to age 18. My daughter designed and organized her team to scratch build a carbon Machbuster including making the tubes. Yes, it flew under my name, but it was 100% clear that students did virtually all of the work building and preparing and that it was the students' rocket. I just put the motor in, handled the ejection charges, and double-checked altimeter beeps after the students had verified them. That's a very small part of the overall job. Would it have been nice to have her name on the top of the flight card? Sure. But does that mean that the rest of the work she and her team did had no value? I don't think so.

 

[Steve Shannon]

But does that mean that the rest of the work she and her team did had no value? I don't think so.

I agree completely. Many such things are non issues until someone makes them an issue.

 

[ep29030]

If, just once ever, I saw a piece of legislation that referenced a distribution and acknowledged how they selected the cutoffs.... that would be amazing.

Lawyers are not statisticians. But they (ab)use them to justify their positions.

 

[boatgeek]

If, just once ever, I saw a piece of legislation that referenced a distribution and acknowledged how they selected the cutoffs.... that would be amazing.

There's often some discussion of that in the legislative text that goes along with the law. The law books are long enough without adding discussions of intent. Where you really get that info is in the regulatory rulemaking that implements laws.

 

[Joe Rocket 97]

The current freedoms are right for a Jr member, but i think the knowledge test for a Jr member is BS.

 

[jmasterj]

The current freedoms are right for a Jr member, but i think the knowledge test for a Jr member is BS.

In what way?

 

[Joe Rocket 97]

Is an 18 year old tested for level 1? NO. Talk about a deterrent for a kid wanting to take the next step.

 

[jmasterj]

Is an 18 year old tested for level 1? NO. Talk about a deterrent for a kid wanting to take the next step.

Are 18-year-olds treated as more mature than 14-year-olds in our society? Clearly yes. If the test is an impediment to a youth, they shouldn't be doing high power anyway, IMO. If anything, the solution it to move the L2 test (or part of it) to L1 so everyone has to study the safety code.

 

[sharkbait]

Is an 18 year old tested for level 1? NO. Talk about a deterrent for a kid wanting to take the next step.

Knowledge testing, practical testing, skills proof testing, ect ect are NOT deterrents, they are mechanisms to prove competency for awarding titles or certifications. This is true in most all things in life. RULES: there are no rules in existence that appease everyone, that favor everyone, that do not in some form restrict everyone, that in some fashion appear to discriminate some, that everyone agree’s on, but there must be some semblance of rules and order or there would be chaos.

I will leave you with quotes:

Dr. Spock- “The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the one”

Winston (John Wick) - “Rules… they are what separate us from the animals”

 

[Steve Shannon]

Is an 18 year old tested for level 1? NO. Talk about a deterrent for a kid wanting to take the next step.

It’s really not. Tripoli has a written test for their Tripoli Mentoring Program as well and it works very well, like the NAR Jr. L1. A junior member as young as 12 can take the test and gain some range privileges that she or he would otherwise have to wait for. Then, having proven that they have learned some of the safety and technical basics, they are allowed to fly a flight that opens up more privileges and eventually becomes an L1 certification. The number of junior members who have done both, for both organizations, proves that it has not been a deterrent.

 

[lakeroadster]

If you have a child interested in rocketry there's nothing saying you can't get certified and then involve your child as deep as you see fit, flying at an independent location.

Think of it as home schooling. If you don't like what the organizations are doing, go your own way.

Just educate yourself on local and federal regulations, understand the risks, and fly safe.

 

[Worsaer]

My son has been flying with me since he was 5. I gifted him a junior Tripoli membership when he was 7 or 8 years old, and he was thrilled with his ‘rocket license’ aka membership card. Now 15, his goal is to get rid of the zero on his card, replacing it with a TMP cert. For the test it’s not a deterrent - it’s a goal. Goals are a good thing!

 

[shockie]

I think people under the age of 18 should be allowed to go to L3, as long as they have an Adult mentor during the process.