ThreeJsDad
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For me, even fin patterns and decals would be awesome. I can roll my own tubes and turn nose cones, it's the details that really make a nice rocket look great that I am missing.
POLL: LPR Plan packs: Yea or Nay?
- Thread starter neil_w
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For me, even fin patterns and decals would be awesome. I can roll my own tubes and turn nose cones, it's the details that really make a nice rocket look great that I am missing.
dr wogz
Fly caster
one piece of advice to you:
go to your local sign maker's shop (the small, single, mom & pop outfit) order some decals, or a sign; something that has the custom cut vinyl. chat them up, ask for help, then ask what they do withe off-cuts (they typically toss them!) Mention that your kids would probably get a kick out of using the scraps / off-cuts to decorate their school binders, a school project, etc. And you should then get a bag full!!
We did this once at an outdoor festival, the kids corner had paper plates, markers & such, and tonnes of off cuts. the kids went wild making masks!
I think that the two things I would be interested in are:
- Something like a compendium of your designs; either a few pages of plans in .pdf format, or electronic design files. Like a digest of your half-baked-designs thread. I like perusing the wide range of designs and ideas that come out of that, and thinking "oooh, I want to build that" or, "I'd use that in a another design".
- Short kits. Body tubes and nose cones are easy to find, but it's those unique parts that aren't readily available that make a scratch built design really cool. Like parts for the plasma cage of PDII, the nose cone of the IRIS-T, stuff like that. I bet a lot of kit and scratch builders would be interested in just getting the hard or unique parts of a design. Also, artwork.
I kind of tried to do that with my OR Renders photo album on this site, but I didn't put nearly everything in there, and there's not enough information to build from. Would you want dimensions and fin templates or just a bunch of pictures?
That seems reasonable to me, at least to the extent that it is practical to produce and package. Certainly, the centering rings on Tectonic Shift would be a no brainer; for other designs it would be harder to determine. Just about every piece on the IRIS-T would qualify, not just the nose, which is why that will most definitely *not* be one of the plan packs.
I have to say that overall I'm surprised by the voting. I didn't really think plan packs were much of a thing. Although I absolutely understand that a "yes" vote in a poll does not directly translate to "I will buy this when it becomes available".
I have to think about whether I can really do this or not. A lot of time would go into instruction creation.
Personally, I'd just want a bunch of pictures (but I probably don't represent the typical rocket modeler). I tend to like to tweak dimensions on my own anyway.
I tend to enjoy the problem solving aspect of scratch building as much as the design aspect. So seeing how others solve tricky issues is very interesting, and largely what makes your build threads so worthwhile. I think that the most valuable product you could offer would have two key components; first the concept of the rocket design itself (the creative side, this could be just a picture), and the techniques and details that make that concept buildable. Your builds are well executed and a key part of that is the planning that goes into the construction before you begin. The pencil rocket is a good example of that. I imagine that for different rocket designs this technical component could be offered in different ways. (for example: laser cut CRs for tectonic shift, or the paper shroud and plasma tube cutting and marking guides you sent me for PDII).
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Build square cross section rockets and make the nose cones (well, pyramids, really) out of heavy cardstock. Dirt cheap, also MUCH safer. If one of these comes in ballistic, the nose cone crumples up and for force is spread over the diameter of the body tube, NOT concentrated at the pointy tip of a plastic or balsa (often hardened with CA) nose cone.
dr wogz
Fly caster
i must admit, i do have a 3D printer at my disposal, so NCs are now easier to come by and can be funky!
(And after um-tillion years doing rocketry,I do have a pretty impressive NC collection at this point. but.. there is.. always one i don't have... )
(And after um-tillion years doing rocketry,I do have a pretty impressive NC collection at this point. but.. there is.. always one i don't have...
)
Follow-up question (maybe a mistake to do it this way but for now I'm too lazy to start a new poll): in case I choose to dip my toe into the waters here, what would you choose as the first plan pack? Look at the media galleries in my .sig for options.
I do the same, but wouldn't pay for that. That's available in the "Half-baked" thread and fleet pics gallery (not to mention other people's threads. There are other people who do cool designs, aren't there?) If I'm going to shell out money I want all the details of a design that's been build and flight tested.
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I agree. A would never charge money for a collection of design renders. Doubtful I would ever want to spend the effort on it, to be honest, although there is always room to improve my pic galleries (which is a story unto itself...)
You could easily enough upload the renders to the gallery. Or to a new gallery. Either way.
That's a toss-up between Biohazard and Diamond Cutter.
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Even better if 3d printable parts files are included.
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Personally, I'm partial to:
Starship Avalon > Alcubierre > Diamon Cutter.
However, I'm also passively hunting for Fliskits Tesla and Borealis (still n/a), as well as the funkier Shrox kits: Ripley, Sarah Conner, Mars Plymoth, Solarkron, Star, Aries, etc.
So, if you had designs that mimic those, I would be a buyer as well.
Another thought - make designs available in multiple sizes, as: 18mm / 24mm / 29mm / 38mm motor mount kits.
This way, you will expand the addressable market space to include everyone across low / mid / high-power flyer communities.
I might build the same design in multiple motor sizes, and fly whichever one fits the field conditions on a given day.
Then again, that may be just me.
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While a plan pack for Starship Avalon sounds enticing, I cannot imagine what sort of masochistic impulse would lead me to attempt to create such a thing.
Also sounds good but not practical (at least, not for me). With complex designs such as these, each size is really a new design, and would require significant additional effort along with a test build.
As much as I would like to do this, I'm really struggling with two aspects:
- Effort in producing the instructions. It will be significant.
- The likely need (including for support of #1) of doing at least one new build of the rocket to both document and test instructions as I go. It's going to be very very hard to get motivated to do that, when I have limited build time and so many other things I would like to build.
That is, in summary, the very thing that a great many potential entrupeneurs fail to consider before they fail to succeed. Don't let me stop you, but this is the reason that I personally am a dedicated nontrupeneur. At least you wouldn't have much monitary investment to lose if you go for it.
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While a plan pack for Starship Avalon sounds enticing, I cannot imagine what sort of masochistic impulse would lead me to attempt to create such a thing.
I kinda assumed that it was the masochistic impulse that was partly driving you to enter the rocket designs plan packs business in the first place!
Seriously, though, I trust you are treating this as a labor of love, and not a business venture.
The entire rocketry market segment is tiny (Estes owns most of it, and the last known revenue #s were below $10M/year), and the high-complexity design and DIY kit-bashing subset of the market is the very narrow masochistic tip of that spear.
Hope you still decide to do it, but not as a retirement plan.
I understand that it is a niche inside of a niche inside of a niche.... I mean really, could I possibly sell as many as 20 of each pack? Even that seems optimistic. How many would I have to sell to consider the venture successful? I mean it's a money loser all the way (considering time investment) but that wouldn't be the primary success criterion.
Think think think.
The time investment only makes it a money loser if would otherwise be spending that time on something else that makes money. We're sometimes told to consider the value of our time, but one must remember to consider which time.
If I take ten hours that I could have spend making wigets at $10/hour, and instead I make a single $5 whatchamacallit, then I've lost $95. But if I would have spent those ten hours sitting on my ass watching TV, then I've made $5. Was it worth doing at $0.50/hour? Probably not. But I didn't lose any money.
If I take ten hours that I could have spend making wigets at $10/hour, and instead I make a single $5 whatchamacallit, then I've lost $95. But if I would have spent those ten hours sitting on my ass watching TV, then I've made $5. Was it worth doing at $0.50/hour? Probably not. But I didn't lose any money.
Can't argue. I mean I *could* argue, but what's the point?
I'll repeat my request for nominations for first plan pack. Maybe it'll give me some motivation.
I'll repeat my request for nominations for first plan pack. Maybe it'll give me some motivation.
BTW, did you read the interview with Jim Flis in the latest Sport Rocketry magazine? Not directly related to what you want to do, but interesting nonetheless.
My copy gets shipped via Parcel Post (i.e. boat) so I probably won't get it for a few weeks.
Could I ask you to summarize?
Jim talks about what it was like to start his rocket kitting business. One part that I thought was interesting was that he let CMASS vote on which design they most wanted to see kitted, and it turned out to be his biggest flop!
Interesting! I wonder if that was due to being of regional, but not national interest? I'm guessing this one:
(pic from Chan Stevens' EMRR review).
My vote is Alcubierre. But they all look kit worthy.
Just that some, as you mentioned, would be difficult to kit parts wise.
I would love to do Alcubierre but it presents a double-challenge:
1) fabricating the ring
2) Technically my build was a failure, as the ring came apart on my first two flights. I probably need to come up with a better construction scheme.
Actually he said it was Proxima Centauri, a rocket he likes, but said was too expensive to sell well. It is a beautiful design.
Got my Sport Rocketry issue in the mail yesterday, read the article.
Jim Flis says that it was too expensive and he sold maybe 20 of those kits.
I feel lucky!
Neil,
As with any new venture offering a product or service it's helpful to do a market survey gauging the demand (like this poll), ascertain the cost of goods to produce each unit, add in your time and labor, assess what the final cost to produce each unit will be, add in your profit margin and see what the final price needs to be. Will the public pay that price? How does it compare to similar units/plans on the market? Etc.
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Neil, I hope I am not reviving a dead thread but I really like plan packs.
The best one I've ever downloaded was actually Peter Alway's 'Little Book of Goofy Rockets', which is less a plan pack and more of just an exploded diagrams of his various builds through the years with some humurous writing. The intention in it is more for inspiration than all out copying. I built the Zubenelgenubi but admittedly only used the fin layout and the entire build looks way different (he gets the credit for a great idea). Definitely would have paid 5 or 10 for the booklet, and even though I will probably never make any of his builds directly I'll continue to reference it for ideas.
Otherwise for me a plan pack with detailed instructions would be ideal for scale stuff, where someone has compiled the data in full vs a full scratch build where looking at pictures is a shot in the dark for accuracy. I built my dad a scale falcon9 for christmas shortly before Apogee released their plans in their newsletter. He likes it but i'm not sure it's 'fridge' worthy. Oh well...
The best one I've ever downloaded was actually Peter Alway's 'Little Book of Goofy Rockets', which is less a plan pack and more of just an exploded diagrams of his various builds through the years with some humurous writing. The intention in it is more for inspiration than all out copying. I built the Zubenelgenubi but admittedly only used the fin layout and the entire build looks way different (he gets the credit for a great idea). Definitely would have paid 5 or 10 for the booklet, and even though I will probably never make any of his builds directly I'll continue to reference it for ideas.
Otherwise for me a plan pack with detailed instructions would be ideal for scale stuff, where someone has compiled the data in full vs a full scratch build where looking at pictures is a shot in the dark for accuracy. I built my dad a scale falcon9 for christmas shortly before Apogee released their plans in their newsletter. He likes it but i'm not sure it's 'fridge' worthy. Oh well...
Anyone still following this thread? If so, I have new questions:
- If Stickershock23 vinyl was included, would that be a plus? Obviously this would increase the cost, but not sure yet by how much.
- How about inkjet-printed decals? This makes me nervous because you'd need to clear-coat the yourself, and in my own experience that is an area ripe for screwing up.
- If laser-cut fins were included, would that be a plus? This would also increase cost, but not by as much as the vinyl (depending on the rocket)
- What would you be looking for in terms of instructions? Given that these would be relatively challenging, and intended for experienced builders, my inclination would be to describe the sequence (with pics of course), and go into detail about tricky or unusual steps, but not spend time describing how to construct a paper shroud, or how to fillet, and whatnot. The reason for this question is simple: creating a full set of detailed instructions is a huge undertaking, far larger than would be worth the effort for 10 or (heaven forbid) 20 sold units. And for most of the target audience a lot of that effort would be wasted anyway. But I'm not sure, so I am asking.
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I just got an alert to go with your post, so this makes at least one.
It depends largely on the vinyl design and if it uniquely enhances the model.
I've just looked through my history of Stickershock orders, and the smallest rocket for which I had ever purchased vinyls was a 1.6" fiberglass thing.
On the other hand, Accur8 had received a lot of my LP airframe business.
If you were to go after the Accur8 niche and customer base, I think there could be success in that market segment.
BTW, if someone were to buy and resurrect Accur8's prints masters, I suspect there could be a viable (small) business in that as well.
I believe Accur8's decals were inkjet printed?
If I'm right on that, their quality, application ease, and clear-coating requirements were fairly accessible and straight forward.
I would love to have ordered and stockpiled more of those!
If fins are fiber-glass, CF, or 5+ply plywood - definitely yes.
If balsa or basswood, probably less so, since cutting balsa is child's play (compared to the above). I paper all my balsa and (cheap and porous) plywood fins, so sanding and manhandling them is not a concern.
4. What would you be looking for in terms of instructions? Given that these would be relatively challenging, and intended for experienced builders, my inclination would be to describe the sequence (with pics of course), and go into detail about tricky or unusual steps, but not spend time describing how to construct a paper shroud, or how to fillet, and whatnot. The reason for this question is simple: creating a full set of detailed instructions is a huge undertaking, far larger than would be worth the effort for 10 or (heaven forbid) 20 sold units. And for most of the target audience a lot of that effort would be wasted anyway. But I'm not sure, so I am asking.
My thoughts:
1). A few quality pictures are worth a thousand words if instruction. Post those on a web site / social media, to double as a marketing ploy.
2). Few minutes of construction video and hints on YouTube (just key points, not necessarily real-time step-by-step) are worth a thousand pictures, and will double as a social media marketing channel.
a
Vinyl decals are a plus.
LOC does not supply the vinyl in some of their kits but makes it available for separate purchase. Keeps the kit cost down (supposedly).
Home printed water slides can be problematic.
I've purchased kits from one manufacturer who supplies home printed decals. It's hit or miss. Also depends on the color scheme and if there are white areas. Might have to compromise.
If you supply laser cut fins then it's a builders kit instead of a plan pack.
Need to decide if you are going to supply all the parts (kit), some of the parts (builders kit) or just the plans, templates and perhaps decals (plan pack).
As for instructions, seems like your designs are for more advanced builders. Instructions can be structured accordingly.
Perhaps a full sized hi rez color page of the graphics that can be scanned and printed on decal paper instead of an actual home printed or vinyl decal? Like the Apogee plans.
LOC does not supply the vinyl in some of their kits but makes it available for separate purchase. Keeps the kit cost down (supposedly).
Home printed water slides can be problematic.
I've purchased kits from one manufacturer who supplies home printed decals. It's hit or miss. Also depends on the color scheme and if there are white areas. Might have to compromise.
If you supply laser cut fins then it's a builders kit instead of a plan pack.
Need to decide if you are going to supply all the parts (kit), some of the parts (builders kit) or just the plans, templates and perhaps decals (plan pack).
As for instructions, seems like your designs are for more advanced builders. Instructions can be structured accordingly.
Perhaps a full sized hi rez color page of the graphics that can be scanned and printed on decal paper instead of an actual home printed or vinyl decal? Like the Apogee plans.
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