plastic cement for new Estes kits?

[cls]

hey folks, in a few recent threads, people mentioned trouble properly gluing plastic parts in the new Estes kits.

we built a few of the new kits this weekend and, yep, good ole' Testors plastic cement just doesn't melt the new plastic well enough. things are coming apart, or splitting and obviously will come apart soon. ghahh!!!

any ideas?

I haven't tried CA because I don't think it's the right stuff for plastic, but maybe it is the right stuff?

thanks!!

 

[Silverleaf]

Well, I'm a scale modeler, whom relies on Tenax-7R - made by Hebco, Hochenwald, TN. You should be able to find it at your local hobby store for around 3 bucks for a 1 oz bottle.

Another option is Microscale's Micro Weld - $2.50 for 1 ounce.

Both are applied with a fine brush, and "wick" into the seam. Simply press the seams together and hold for 5 seconds. Voila !

Note, these aren't normal glues that can fill a wide seam, but literally are brushed over the seam to connect two parts.

You can go with Maxi-Cure SuperGlue, because its thicker, and is more like syrup - which gives you time to handle/adjust before it sets up. HOWEVER, I wouldn't recommend it on Estes items before testing the particular brand you buy on a test piece of plastic.

Usually Estes doesn't give you much leftover plastic..

Hope that helps,

 

[powderburner]

for plastic-to-plastic, or for plastic-to-cardboard, I am now a big fan of gorilla glue
put a small squirt onto a scrap of cardboard, mix in a couple drips of water (to activate), wait for it to foam up, and apply with a toothpick or Q-tip

 

[Rocket Al]

After reading the beginning of this thread, I thought I'd tear open the Gauchito kit I bought this weekend. This doesn't look like styrene at all. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it looks alot like PVC plastic. I'm going to check the Estes site (and maybe their phone number) and see what I can find out.

Al

 

[Rocket Al]

One of the R&D guys there said that the kits were made with ABS styrene, and that the tube type cement should work, although at Estes they tend to use the liquid cement. He also suggested cleaning the plastic parts first to remove any residual silicone mold release.

Duh! (Smacks forehead)

When one builds a display plastic model kit, one always cleans the parts with soap or alcohol so the glue (and paint) sticks better. Why would it be any different for these parts?

Al

Who is going to go soak his pieces in some warm soapy water right now.....

Then I'll put the model parts in too...

 

[r1dermon]

if you're glueing plastic-plastic...i've found nothing better than good old CA. ZAP works the best, but regular superglue will do. as long as the parts dont recieve instant stress. like a MMT or something. but for glueing the shock cord attachment to a plastic NC, superglue is the TICKET.

 

[MetMan]

I used Testors orange tube cement on the Scissor Wing Transport and it seemed to take OK. I roughed it up first with sandpaper. I also reinforced with medium CA just to be on the safe side.

The cleaning mold release agent idea is a winner, though.

 

[Micromeister]

I haven't had a chance to "glue Up" any of the new molded parts from our buddies at estes yet. I will in the next few days.

Like Siverleaf I do a lot of Plastic model Scale construction, PMC models and diorama builting with Acrylics, Styrenes and some ABS plastics. Choice of cement or adhesive depends on what kind of plastic we're working with.
Silverleaf mentioned two very agressive solvent welding materials. Tenax-7R and Micro-weld , there is also a material bottled for Plastisturct but I don't have the name at the moment, These are all hobbyshop available and will give the best seam results. However Good Ol'e Testers liquid cement will do just about as well IF given the proper application. I use a #2 or 3 red sable (very soft hair) bursh to apply whichever liquid solvent to the seam line and allow this material to wick in. ONE application is not going to do it, we must get a full penetration of the material at both seam edges this takes multiple passes and several application QUICKLY. than hold, clamp or rubberband the part together until completely dry.

My favorite solvent welding material for Acrylics, Styremes and ABS platics is Methylene Chloride (MC). This is a commerical product used in the sign industry. It is only sold in gallons, 5-gal pails, 16 and 55 gal drums. but IS available at almost any sign supply house nation wide for about 20.00/gal. MC is a water thin material that comes with a rather lengthy warning lable and MSDS data sheet. Read the warning, don't let the kids play with the stuff, but it's great for many types of plastic joining, using the same brushing wicking technique.
MC can also be used to make liquid plastic by placing small chips for the plastic we're using or bits of sprue form the model kit broken up very small and placed in a small glass bottle filled with MC. Within about 3 hours the MC will completely desolve the bits. Keep adding bits until the material is about as thick as honey. This goop can be brushed or spread on a model seam, dent to fill in plastic defects or breaks or can be thickened further to make small parts. or buildups. once the MC evaporates the plastic reverts to is original state, it does shrink slightly but can be sanded, knived and shaped like the original model material.

DO NOT WASH plastic parts with soap and water to remover mold release agents. this is especially ture if the parts have recesses or places that will be difficult to whip. Soapy water in these area will never accept paint. IF you feel you must clear your plastic parts use only rubbing alcohol as this will not effect paint applications later.

CA is fine for detail and filling seams on styrene plastic models but does not chemically bond plastic to plastic. a sharp jar will crack CA'ed seams. if used as a filler dried CA has the same sanding/polishing properties as Styreme plastic.
Hope this helps.

 

[cls]

thanks guys, some good suggestions here. as the goal is to have the kids put together their xmas presents I think we'll try double or triple applications of liquid Testors. I have some of that in the garage. it that doesn't work then we'll use good old purple bottle CA.

(I don't think CA on shock cords is a good idea, because the CA will eat the rubber. in fact the Aerotech instructions specifically say not to allow any CA on the shock cord.)


lately I've been using Simple Green to clean plastic parts. it's not simple, and it's not very Green (ecologically), but it's a good degreaser. maybe it ought to come with a copy of its MSDS.

 

[astronboy]

I have been very disapointed with Testor's tube glue lately, but the liquid seems OK. I typically use MEK (Methyl Ethyl Keytone) applied in the method that Micromister suggests. I purchase it at my local model train shop. It is pretty nasty, so I would only suggest that it be used by adults in a well ventilated area.

My only concernes with CA is that is can haze the plastic,. This is of course, only an issue if if little fingers get the stuff on any areas that will be 'on display' on the ourside of he rocket. There is also very little room for error with CA, which makes it not always the best for kids to use.

CA will make shock chords fragile. Don't do it!! I have learned the hard way when a chord seperated at the CA'd knot.

 

[Rocket Al]

Methylene Chloride is also probably the world's fastest paint remover. I used a semi-gelled version of it to strip the wood in my house. Brush it on, let it sit for a couple of seconds, then scrape her off. Completely clean. Very noxious, though. After you lips get numb (!!!) you know something bad is happening to yer internal organs.

Now that I have kids, I don't bring it into the house anymore....

Al

 

[MetMan]

Way back when when I was into plastic models, I seem to remember people using Testors liquid cement with scrap styrene dissolved in it to thicken it and make it stickier. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

 

[Micromeister]

Originally posted by Rocket Al
Methylene Chloride is also probably the world's fastest paint remover. I used a semi-gelled version of it to strip the wood in my house. Brush it on, let it sit for a couple of seconds, then scrape her off. Completely clean. Very noxious, though. After you lips get numb (!!!) you know something bad is happening to yer internal organs.

Now that I have kids, I don't bring it into the house anymore....

Al

Al: MEK and MC are both on the hazardous materials list, Very nasty if improperlly used, stored etc. But that shouldn't stop proper use and handling by the young folks. All 3 of my kids were brought up with these and many, many other "hazardous" chemical and compounds. Son John at the rip old age of 4yrs...And they were just in the kitchen... Then there was my chemistry lab and ALL the model building stuff in the basement. We can and should introduce and teach our kid the proper use of things they are going to come into contact with out in the world anyway. That old line "life itself would be impossible without chemistry" couldn't be more correct. Don't hide stuff, Teach them.... That is after all every parents first and foremost responsibility

 

[Silverleaf]

Way back when when I was into plastic models, I seem to remember people using Testors liquid cement with scrap styrene dissolved in it to thicken it and make it stickier. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

Yes it does. I use this technique when I come across a kit or conversion attempt where the model has large gaps, or is just a badly molded kit. The idea is to use a bit of the same type/color of plastic, mix it in with the Testor's Liquid cement, and then fill the gaps.

The same basic technique applies when working with wood. to fill a seam.

Sand the parts, reserve the sawdust, mix it in with your choice of wood glue, then apply it and let it dry. Once dry, you can sand it smooth thus giving the same type of filler/color to the project.

Cheers,

 

[cls]

quick update here - I used the Testors Liquid Cement to fix a couple new Estes kits. it really did the trick!! the proof is in the flying though, and the kits stayed together perfectly today.

looking at the back of the bottle, it seems Testors Liquid is mostly MEK anyways.

we'll go ahead & use it on the Lucky Seven kit.

thanks again folks.

 

[stl1951]

Another plastic cement that works for the new Estes kits is the Plastruct Bondene for styrene
and ABS plastics (Dichoromethane). Available at your local Hobby store YMMV.

 

[AKPilot]

Originally posted by Micromeister

Silverleaf mentioned two very agressive solvent welding materials. Tenax-7R and Micro-weld , there is also a material bottled for Plastisturct but I don't have the name at the moment, These are all hobbyshop available and will give the best seam results. However Good Ol'e Testers liquid cement will do just about as well IF given the proper application. I use a #2 or 3 red sable (very soft hair) bursh to apply whichever liquid solvent to the seam line and allow this material to wick in. ONE application is not going to do it, we must get a full penetration of the material at both seam edges this takes multiple passes and several application QUICKLY. than hold, clamp or rubberband the part together until completely dry.

Having rarely worked with plastics, ABS, and such, can someone further explain how to "wick in" on the above materials? That is, do you clamp or hold them as you apply the bonding agent, or do you apply on seperate sides and and then put together.

Just not sure . . . so, Micro, if you have pics (as always) that'd be great.

Thanks,

 

[bigone5500]

I had an incident with a nosecone on my estes screaming eagle. I was pressing the clay weight into the tip when the seam of the nosecone split. It split about an inch from the tip. I used some 70% isopropyl alcohol to clean it and ran a bead of medium cure CA that I bought from Hobby Lobby. I held it together with my fingers and sprayed a mist of accelerator (SIG Kwik-Shot) and after about 20 seconds it was fixed. I waited a couple hours though then sanded it smooth. That worked for me. I'm thinking it should work for you too unless the parts in question are made of a different material than the nosecones. Maybe rough them up a bit with 400 grit sandpaper and clean them with alcohol...it should work.

And like has been said before...try to experiment.

Good luck!

 

[zog43editor]

Originally posted by akpilot
do you clamp or hold them as you apply the bonding agent,

That's the way to do it. Especially with thin glues like the liquid plastic cement or thin CA glue. You don't need a lot of glue when you use this method.

kj

 

[Donaldsrockets]

For me, it's CA with ALL plastic to plastic joints.

Several times I have had Testor's both the tube and the liquid dry out, crack and lose it's adhesive properties.

Every Estes E2X series kit I have built recently has been glued with CA and I don't think they'll be coming apart anytime soon.

Plus, the tube stuff STINKS!!!

I used to get some rather strong headaches from it.

 

[Micromeister]

Don:
The problem with relying on CA is that it doesn't really Bond anything, it simply sticks any two things together, CA's become very brittle in a short period of time. Testors liquid styrene cement will work fine if you use it correctly, remembering your trying to "solvent weld" those part together permanently. It takes more than a single pass with the solvent to soften the material and it takes some practice not to run the stuff all over the outside of your models, fin cans, transitions or what-have-you.
It may take as many as 5 or 6 passes to soften even styrene plastics enough to be jointed before the solvent evaporates and the plastics have enought time to reharded. This Time lag is one of the reasons tube type Plastic cements were formulated to get the MEK and or other chemicals in the solvent enough time to do it's work before evaporation allows the materials to reharden.

Personally I'd stick with Plastistruct "plastic-Weld" or EverGreen's "plasti-sol" or something like that, if your afraid of using real MC (Methylene Chloride) for your solvent welding
Used properly MC is no more of a hazard then epoxy
Hope this helps a little

PS: Tip for keeping your MC or other water thin plastic solvents:
once opened reseal the jars tightly and keep them in the freezer until you need them. That's were I store my bulk Gal can of MC right in the corner of the chest type freezer