xx Paypal Friends and Family Warning.

Discussion in 'Yard Sale / Wanted' started by cwbullet, Nov 19, 2019.

Help Support The Rocketry Forum by donating:

  1. Nov 19, 2019 #1

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    This post is an FYI warning.

    Be warned. If you buy something using PayPal Friends and Family, you may be putting your ability to contest the purchase later in jeopardy.
     
  2. Nov 19, 2019 #2

    Bat-mite

    Bat-mite

    Bat-mite

    Rocketeer in MD

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Messages:
    10,252
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Maryland
    Sorry, Chuck, but how is that a warning? That's the definition of F&F. It is not intended to be used for purchases; it is to be used when sending money to friends and family.
     
  3. Nov 20, 2019 #3

    Ulexis

    Ulexis

    Ulexis

    Forum Supporter TRF Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    12
    That's a very legitimate warning. However almost everyone here asks for that to save a few bucks. I guess we are just supposed to trust our Rockerty Forum friends.
     
  4. Nov 20, 2019 #4

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    The problem is that people are using it for purchases with people they don't know. This is a real risk.
     
    jmuck78, Banzai88 and Bill S like this.
  5. Nov 20, 2019 #5

    timbucktoo

    timbucktoo

    timbucktoo

    Well-Known Member Staff Member Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    6,098
    Likes Received:
    561
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cocoa Beach
    I’ve bought/sold here a few times with friends & family. I think everything I’ve purchased was from those who’d been around here awhile. There is even a forum here with list of good buyers. If in doubt when making purchases, send it through normal channels and add the PayPal fee. If seller opposed, then that’s a reason not to buy.
     
    NikeMikey, DeeRoc29 and Nytrunner like this.
  6. Nov 20, 2019 #6

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    Great point.
     
  7. Nov 20, 2019 #7

    jadebox

    jadebox

    jadebox

    Roger Smith TRF Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,471
    Likes Received:
    68
    A seller should never ask you to use Friends and Family. If they do, you have a good reason to be concerned.

    On the other hand, if you know and trust someone, using F&F to pay them will save them a little. Just be aware that you waive your rights the protections normally provided by PayPal. It is like paying with cash.

    It wasn't clear to me if it was even allowed to pay for merchandise using F&F, so I called PayPal a while back and asked. I was told that it is okay, but, as expected, that we would be waiving the protections on purchases that PayPal normally provides.

    One of our vendors, however, has asked that we not use F&F because they were told by PayPal not to accept it for sales payments. I think that the real policy is that vendors can't request that payments are made by F&F. That makes sense because a seller should not ask the buyer to waive protections offered by PayPal.
     
    NikeMikey likes this.
  8. Nov 20, 2019 #8

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    I did the same and got the same response.
     
  9. Nov 20, 2019 #9

    jadebox

    jadebox

    jadebox

    Roger Smith TRF Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,471
    Likes Received:
    68
    I am surprised that PayPal doesn't provide a prominent warning when you select "Sending to a Friend" especially if you are sending money to a business account. It seems like something useful they could easily implement.
     
  10. Nov 20, 2019 #10

    jderimig

    jderimig

    jderimig

    Sponsor TRF Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    2,886
    Likes Received:
    344
    The solution is simple. If a seller requests F&F, counter offer to cover the paypal fee . Seller gets fee-less transaction and buyer gets buyer protection. Win-Win. Was is that hard?
     
    NikeMikey, emckee, SammyD and 6 others like this.
  11. Nov 20, 2019 #11

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    That
    That is the reason for the sticky.
     
  12. Nov 20, 2019 #12

    Bat-mite

    Bat-mite

    Bat-mite

    Rocketeer in MD

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Messages:
    10,252
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Maryland
    Are other people not seeing this link when they make payments?

    upload_2019-11-20_9-36-8.png
     
  13. Nov 20, 2019 #13

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    I am just reminding folks. Consider this a public service announcement.
     
    Angie likes this.
  14. Nov 20, 2019 #14

    jadebox

    jadebox

    jadebox

    Roger Smith TRF Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,471
    Likes Received:
    68
    Yes, but that would be easy to overlook especially for someone new to PayPal.
     
  15. Nov 20, 2019 #15

    djs

    djs

    djs

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    3,187
    Likes Received:
    187
    Related- I remember a while ago that paypal would freeze people's accounts if they used F+F too much- basically that they were using it as a business account instead of what it was intended for. Not sure if they still do that or what the threshold is/was that they used.
     
  16. Nov 20, 2019 #16

    Bat-mite

    Bat-mite

    Bat-mite

    Rocketeer in MD

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Messages:
    10,252
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Maryland
    PayPal would be within its rights to not offer the F&F service at all. "You want to use our service, you pay for it." I think it's nice that they allow you a free way to send money to people you trust.
     
    NikeMikey likes this.
  17. Nov 20, 2019 #17

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    They reserve the right to cancel any account with excessive use or probably more accurate: suspicious use.
     
  18. Nov 20, 2019 #18

    Nytrunner

    Nytrunner

    Nytrunner

    Master of Rivets

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    5,264
    Likes Received:
    1,144
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    It is indeed a valid warning.

    That being said, every TRF yard sale purchase I've made over the last 3 years has come with a request for F&F, and I have always got my products.
     
    Bat-mite likes this.
  19. Nov 20, 2019 #19

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    True. Very few have not, but today it is important to be vigilant.
     
  20. Nov 21, 2019 #20

    SammyD

    SammyD

    SammyD

    Forum Supporter TRF Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    71
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    FWIW,

    I ask for F&F as I'm not interested in paying the Paypal fees. If folks want the buyer protection, I ask them to add the fee. Either way is fine with me.

    On another note: I don't believe there is an option for "Send Money to a Friend" any longer. Helping walk someone through the PP screens a few days ago, I saw this: "Send Money to Someone You Trust". I think the verbage has changed in the last few days/weeks.

    FYI...

    Sam
     
  21. Nov 21, 2019 #21

    SammyD

    SammyD

    SammyD

    Forum Supporter TRF Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    71
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    That's the solution.
     
  22. Nov 21, 2019 #22

    dlb

    dlb

    dlb

    Sky Pyrate...

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,178
    Likes Received:
    19
    Gender:
    Male
    I use PayPal a lot. Although I do limit my use of Friends and Family part. They're in business to make money and if they see you abusing it, bang gone. Sometimes those bigger purchases is easier with friends and family or just have the purchaser cover the percentage fee and go the standard route. PayPal's happy, you're happy, customers happy, win win win.
     
  23. Nov 21, 2019 #23

    Reinhard

    Reinhard

    Reinhard

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Austria
    There is also the seller protection aspect.

    If the buyer claims that the payment was not authorized or the goods weren't received, there can be a charge back. For example, a type of fraud involves gaining access to a Paypal account belonging to a third party and to use that for payment. Paypal will reverse the payment as soon as the third party disputes the transaction, but usually the goods have been shipped at this point, leaving the seller empty handed. Seller protection addresses that, but there are some strings attached. In particular goods must be shipped to the address provided by the Paypal transaction.
    https://www.paypal.com/us/brc/article/seller-protection

    That's probably less relevant for rocketry yard sales, but if you're looking to sell an high value item that can be easily resold on a platform like Ebay, there is a higher chance that the item will attract the interest of scammers.

    Reinhard
     
  24. Nov 21, 2019 #24

    MikeyDSlagle

    MikeyDSlagle

    MikeyDSlagle

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    2,042
    Likes Received:
    145
    I've received money one time that wasn't F&F, buyer wanted the protection and that was fine. The problem was that I sent the item first class, no tracking number to save money. The items arrived, the buyer was happy but I couldn't touch my money for I think 30 days. There was no way to confirm delivery so PayPal wouldn't release my money. So now if buyer wants protection, they pay extra for shipping as well. Don't know if that is the case now.
    Large pricey items gets insurance and tracking anyway of course but this transaction was aluminum bulkheads, didn't need shipping costing more than the items.
     
  25. Nov 21, 2019 #25

    DAllen

    DAllen

    DAllen

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    4,344
    Likes Received:
    306
    My other hobby is disc golf and I run a disc golf club. I filed a DBA and got a checking account for the club along with a PP account. To avoid the loss of funds due to PP locking our club account I am constantly transferring money to the club bank account. While tedious and annoying to do there's the piece of mind knowing that the money is there when needed which is especially helpful the weeks leading up to a disc golf tournament when we have a lot of stuff to pay for and a lot of registration fees are pouring in. Yes it does mean tying the PP account to the bank account and I do have to keep a vigilant eye on that situation but at least I know we'd never be more than $100-$200 out if the PP account ever did get locked.

    On a related note a few months ago A LOT of people in the disc golf community got absolutely hammered by PP with accounts getting locked left and right. The wailing and gnashing of teeth on FB was quite a cautionary tale. I think a lot of those people were constantly buying/selling discs via FB and insisting all transactions be done F&F. As a result, I insisted all transactions via PP with our disc golf club be done G&S instead. I didn't care if we took a hit with the PayPal tax because we are pretty dependent on PP for everything from club fees to tourney registrations and so on...It pays to know the terms and conditions of the services you use.
     
  26. Nov 21, 2019 #26

    catman001

    catman001

    catman001

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    3
    While I don't buy a lot on this forum, I do use Paypal a lot. If a person request's F&F, I just look right past the ad. If your willing to lie to Paypal, how can I trust that that the item for sale is as described or if your even going to ship? Yes, most of the time it will work out just fine, but what if there is a problem. In talking to friends and members of clubs that I belong to, many feel the way that I do, and will not buy from a ad that ask's for F&F. Use it if you want to but remember that you are reducing your pool of potential buyers. I have used F&F only once and as luck would have it, the person was a scammer. Never got my item. Guess what Paypal said. Never again.
     
    Titan II and DAllen like this.
  27. Nov 21, 2019 #27

    rfjustin

    rfjustin

    rfjustin

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,969
    Likes Received:
    170
    Location:
    Franklin, WI
  28. Nov 21, 2019 #28

    ActingLikeAKid

    ActingLikeAKid

    ActingLikeAKid

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2015
    Messages:
    1,131
    Likes Received:
    13
    On a related note, I attempted to purchase something on TRF a couple of years ago.
    It went like this (I don't remember the exact numbers, but I'm estimating):
    Item was for sale for $50 for a while.
    I messaged- offered $35
    Seller agreed.
    I paypal-ed $35 as a purchase.
    Seller replied "$33.78?!?!?!?!?!"
    I checked - I'd sent $35, and paypal had taken their cut. I offered to paypal (f&f) the difference.
    Seller canceled the transaction and said he didn't want to do business with me.

    Lesson learned, I guess: if you're not using paypal F&F (which, I agree with OP, you shouldn't), make that clear before the purchase.
     
  29. Nov 22, 2019 #29

    ghostfather

    ghostfather

    ghostfather

    Forum Supporter TRF Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    27
    I ordered something a while back from someone here on the forum, and the seller asked for PayPal payments using friends and family. Guess what, you can only use friends and family in your own country (I live in the Netherlands), even though I asked to have it shipped to an address in Florida that I use to bundle and remail orders to Europe.
    I offered to pay the difference, explaining the reason, and all was fine.
    Often I see web sites where when you pay with PayPal, they tack on an extra 2% because that's about what Paypal skims off as payment, or with a credit card, it can be even more. I have no problem with that. PayPal and Credit Cards give you some protection, but you can't expect it for free.
     
  30. Nov 22, 2019 #30

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    cwbullet

    Obsessed with Rocketry Staff Member Administrator TRF Lifetime Supporter Global Mod

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    22,491
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glennville, GA
    2% is nothing for security.
     
    DAllen likes this.

Share This Page