Paypal Friends and Family and VENMO Warning.

[BigMacDaddy]

I got ripped off 6 months ago on Facebook Marketplace buying a batch of rocket motors and using the F&F feature. Thinking I would be a nice guy to my fellow rocketeer, I sent $80 and never got them. I contacted the Police in his town and they said he had a history of criminal activity. Using this feature, you get zero protection, zero money back.

That sucks -- The key for F&F is to only buy from sellers with an established reputation in an online community that will kick people for ripping other members off.

 

[icyclops]

It is indeed a valid warning.

That being said, every TRF yard sale purchase I've made over the last 3 years has come with a request for F&F, and I have always got my products.

A seller can request payment anyway he or she wants…..but if that price changes based on F&F cost policy, then they better put it in their ad upfront and not expect everyone to know better (even with this warning thread)….why make it any harder for the buyer to really figure out how much your selling it for….especially when the sellers are asking to waive buyer rights. F&F $40, Reg PP $42 (or whatever percent they charge). Not hard and sounds less ominous than “just give your rights away”.

I know, I know…it takes more work and time typing….

 

[cwbullet]

I want to remind our members to be careful buying and selling on the forum. We have had a slight increase in what I will just call crooks. They have been mostly sellers but a few buyers. If something seems suspicious, please do not take the matter into your own hands, "report" with the report link at the bottom of the post and let the staff hand it.

 

[troj]

I want to remind our members to be careful buying and selling on the forum. We have had a slight increase in what I will just call crooks. They have been mostly sellers but a few buyers. If something seems suspicious, please do not take the matter into your own hands, "report" with the report link at the bottom of the post and let the staff hand it.

I appreciate you and the others doing what you can to keep such people off the forum!

 

[cwbullet]

I appreciate you and the others doing what you can to keep such people off the forum!

We will keep working. Right now, I am reviewing every new post to the yardsale if I am online when it is posted.

 

[Hobie1dog]

after I got ripped off for $80 for some Rocket motors, using friends and family, that won't happen anymore

 

[cwbullet]

after I got ripped off for $80 for some Rocket motors, using friends and family, that won't happen anymore

It has happened to all of us.

 

[JeffBigg]

I’m not entirely sure what I want to say here, but I believe there is a place for “Friends and Family“ in transactions in the Yard Sale. I have read the entire thread and I understand the buyer protections that are given up when you use F&F. I have purchased a couple of things here and I have been nervous about receiving my products after paying with F&F, however I’m happy to say that I always received all items that I paid for. This tread seems to imply that anyone that doesn’t allow goods and services payment is a crook. That is not always the case. I personally refused to take a payment today via goods and services. I’m not a business, and I don’t want to assume risk like a business. I surely don’t want any involvement from the IRS, and if something is lost by USPS, you have to take it up with them. I have to believe that PayPal reports all goods and services sales to the IRS. They only have to send you a 1099 when you exceed $600 or whatever that limit is this year. The taxpayer has to report the “sale” on a 1040 if the amount is $10 or $700. I’m also wondering what happens to the seller that sells 1 or 2 items a year and has a buyer complain to PayPal that a package was not delivered? Or stolen from their porch? Does the seller lose the money and the item? A true small business can absorb some losses as a part of doing business. Probably not much, but at least a little. Guess I’ll go back to “you can mail me a money order,” or meet me on the flying field. Sorry to ramble, but I don’t like the implication that if I don’t accept goods and services payments that I must be a crook or scammer.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[cwbullet]

I’m not entirely sure what I want to say here, but I believe there is a place for “Friends and Family“ in transactions in the Yard Sale. I have read the entire thread and I understand the buyer protections that are given up when you use F&F. I have purchased a couple of things here and I have been nervous about receiving my products after paying with F&F, however I’m happy to say that I always received all items that I paid for. This tread seems to imply that anyone that doesn’t allow goods and services payment is a crook. That is not always the case. I personally refused to take a payment today via goods and services. I’m not a business, and I don’t want to assume risk like a business. I surely don’t want any involvement from the IRS, and if something is lost by USPS, you have to take it up with them. I have to believe that PayPal reports all goods and services sales to the IRS. They only have to send you a 1099 when you exceed $600 or whatever that limit is this year. The taxpayer has to report the “sale” on a 1040 if the amount is $10 or $700. I’m also wondering what happens to the seller that sells 1 or 2 items a year and has a buyer complain to PayPal that a package was not delivered? Or stolen from their porch? Does the seller lose the money and the item? A true small business can absorb some losses as a part of doing business. Probably not much, but at least a little. Guess I’ll go back to “you can mail me a money order,” or meet me on the flying field. Sorry to ramble, but I don’t like the implication that if I don’t accept goods and services payments that I must be a crook or scammer.

Thanks,
Jeff

The bottom line is that Paypal does not have to return any of the money you send with F&F. If you send it by F&F and you do not get your product, you can now consider that a gift.

 

[BigMacDaddy]

I want to remind our members to be careful buying and selling on the forum. We have had a slight increase in what I will just call crooks. They have been mostly sellers but a few buyers. If something seems suspicious, please do not take the matter into your own hands, "report" with the report link at the bottom of the post and let the staff hand it.

Does this go beyond the account hacking incident?

The scenario of a well-known members account being hacked and then people using that account to sell things and request F&F payments is one that I had not thought of previously (and it obviously happens). My previous argument was that the community (and group/forum) would police itself in a close knit group and that abusers would be quickly ejected. However, if a well-known member gets hacked and people use that account to sell things then this breaks the above assumptions.

I wonder how to deal with this type of scenario systematically. Reviewing sales posts or even putting a 24 hour delay on sales posts would often resolve this (assumes that people figure out they have been hacked in 24 hours).

EDIT: Is it possible to require that people validate their TRF account prior to posting a forsale listing? I know it is not totally convenient to have to pull out the account verification app on my phone but this could be a mechanism for two-step verification before a for-sale listing.

It also seems that there should be some way to validate the paypal account you are provided for payments belongs to the person that is requesting funds. My paypal account name is pretty ridiculous (like my handle on here) but now I am thinking it is somewhat memorable and might trigger someone to worry if "I" requested a payment to a different account.

I wonder if there are other ways to protect ourselves from this [relatively uncommon] situation without "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" (i.e., eliminating F&F options for transactions among community members).

 

[jmasterj]

The only thing you can rule out is people publicly asking for F&F. Negotiations via PM can do whatever. I think we're all (mostly?) adults here; if a buyer is willing to risk losing money for nothing that's on the buyer.

 

[cwbullet]

EDIT: Is it possible to require that people validate their TRF account prior to posting a forsale listing?

This sort of already happens plus you have to 20 post to use the Yardsale.

 

[Bravo52]

The only thing you can rule out is people publicly asking for F&F. Negotiations via PM can do whatever. I think we're all (mostly?) adults here; if a buyer is willing to risk losing money for nothing that's on the buyer.

I belong to another forum that only allows sales through PP Goods and Services. If you ask or are asked for F&F, you are banned from the forum (the whole purpose of the forum is to sell modeling items). They also highly recommend all shipping through USPS Priority as it is generally cheaper, trackable and you can readily get the cost online. When I sell online, I only use PP G&S and ship USPS Priority or I don't sell at all. It protects everyone.

Ironically, this reminds me I need to put a few kits in the Yard Sale...

 

[jmasterj]

I belong to another forum that only allows sales through PP Goods and Services. If you ask or are asked for F&F, you are banned from the forum (the whole purpose of the forum is to sell modeling items). They also highly recommend all shipping through USPS Priority as it is generally cheaper, trackable and you can readily get the cost online. When I sell online, I only use PP G&S and ship USPS Priority or I don't sell at all. It protects everyone.

I've been a part of a community like that too. I wouldn't complain about that being implemented here.

I don't know about the USPS recommendation, though. For bulky stuff UPS is usually much cheaper and also trackable.

 

[mh9162013]

I've been a part of a community like that too. I wouldn't complain about that being implemented here.

No, we shouldn't have that sort of policy here. I already enough tax filing work to do, I don't need more work by letting Paypal send me another 1099 to deal with.

 

[mh9162013]

I belong to another forum that only allows sales through PP Goods and Services. If you ask or are asked for F&F, you are banned from the forum (the whole purpose of the forum is to sell modeling items).

That's a horrible policy. Are they trying make their members deal with more tax headaches?

 

[BigMacDaddy]

This sort of already happens plus you have to 20 post to use the Yardsale.

But that does not resolve the hacking situation. When we periodically need to look for a verification code on our phones that forces account verification. If that could happen automatically when someone posts a for sale item that would help resolve the hacking situation.

 

[cwbullet]

But that does not resolve the hacking situation. When we periodically need to look for a verification code on our phones that forces account verification. If that could happen automatically when someone posts a for sale item that would help resolve the hacking situation.

You can two step on. That is an option for each user. Unfortunately, the software is built that way.

 

[afadeev]

But that does not resolve the hacking situation.

That's where an insurance on your transaction (via PP G&S, or CC payment) comes in.

If you do not personally know and trust the person with whom you are transacting remotely, you have three (3) fundamental courses of action to choose from:
1. Take the risk as-is (e.g.: PP F&F, cash in the mail). Either because the $$ amounts involved are inconsequential, or you feel like it, or you don't want paper trail.
2. Mitigate the risk payment method with transaction insurance (e.g.: PP G&S, or CC payment).
3. Avoid the risk and don't transact with parties unknown altogether.

Same fundamental options apply on and off this forum.

HTH,
a

P.S.: Hacking and identity fraud happen. You can't "solve" for that eventuality, but you can mitigate the losses via #2.

 

[BigMacDaddy]

That's where an insurance on your transaction (via PP G&S, or CC payment) comes in.

If you do not personally know and trust the person with whom you are transacting remotely, you have three (3) fundamental courses of action to choose from:
1. Take the risk as-is (e.g.: PP F&F, cash in the mail). Either because the $$ amounts involved are inconsequential, or you feel like it, or you don't want paper trail.
2. Mitigate the risk payment method with transaction insurance (e.g.: PP G&S, or CC payment).
3. Avoid the risk and don't transact with parties unknown altogether.

Same fundamental options apply on and off this forum.

HTH,
a

P.S.: Hacking and identity fraud happen. You can't "solve" for that eventuality, but you can mitigate the loses via #2.

Agree with the recourses you listed.

However, in the recent case on this forum, someone had their account hacked so people may have thought they were dealing with a trusted contact they knew personally (or others may have relied on that person's reputation and longevity in the forum).

Where I disagree is that you can't solve for hacking and identity theft. True you cannot totally fix this, however, two step verification makes it much more difficult for people to do things that require they have access to your phone. If you had to verify your account prior to posting in the for sale section that would significantly reduce the risk of a person hacking your account and posting a bunch of fraudulent sales listings. This is how Ebay and other sites (like Paypal) reduce their risk.

However, requiring verification before posting in a specific forum may not be a feature of the forum software.

 

[cautery]

Not that anyone asked, but here is my take:

1) Thieves exist.

2) I truly appreciate ANY VOLUNTEER efforts that @cwbullet, or anyone else, exerts to expose, run off, bury in the woods, or otherwise thwart the thieves.

3) We are all free and over 18 here. No one, Forum and members included, owes anyone a debt of security against the thieves. It's a DIY task.

4) Proceed accordingly.


####################################################################
PS: I went and auditioned the 2-Factor Auth (2FA) options in the software here. Either an auth (Google, MS, authy, ID.me) app OR emailed code. I tried both. Both work great.

I use ID.me as one of my authy apps for VA.gov, Expert Voice, etc. I registerd TRF through it and it is fast, fast, fast. No waiting for emails or texts.
Oh and I changed my TRF password 10 seconds after enabling 2FA.

"I is who I says I is!" -Author Unknown

 

[cwbullet]

Not that anyone asked, but here is my take:

1) Thieves exist.

2) I truly appreciate ANY VOLUNTEER efforts that @cwbullet, or anyone else, exerts to expose, run off, bury in the woods, or otherwise thwart the thieves.

3) We are all free and over 18 here. No one, Forum and members included, owes anyone a debt of security against the thieves. It's a DIY task.

4) Proceed accordingly.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

We do a lot to protect out members, but it start with people reporting suspicious behavior.

 

[JeffBigg]

@cautery Thanks for the info about 2 factor. When I first looked at 2 factor, I thought that I had to use one of the apps listed on the 2 factor setup page, so I didn't sign up for it. I just enabled it with my Microsoft Authenticator app that has to be on my phone already for work. Time to generate a new 30 character password.

 

[cwbullet]

To add two factor authentication: click on you avatar > Password and security > enable two factor.

 

[troj]

I didn't realize 2FA was available here - thanks, I now have it set up!

BTW, for those who configure 2FA, remember it when you upgrade your phone. Some authenticators, such as Google Authenticator, make migrating to a new phone easy. Not all do.

 

[Titan II]

That's a horrible policy. Are they trying make their members deal with more tax headaches?

If you use F&F and they are neither, you are just a common thief.

 

[mh9162013]

If you use F&F and they are neither, you are just a common thief.

How does using F&F (when someone is neither) make one a thief? Using it still results in paying Paypal fees.

 

[Bravo52]

That's a horrible policy. Are they trying make their members deal with more tax headaches?

Nah, it protects everyone in the transaction. Tax headaches? Really?

 

[mh9162013]

Nah, it protects everyone in the transaction. Tax headaches? Really?

Yes, really.

 

[Titan II]

How does using F&F (when someone is neither) make one a thief? Using it still results in paying Paypal fees.

Sending money within the United States to friends and family is free via a PayPal balance or linked bank account.