Page 32 of the 2023 Estes catalog?

[Tramper Al]

I'm not one to mix "politics" with a fun hobby like model rocketry.
But I am disappointed to no end with Estes' decisions to feature the model SA-2061 "Sasha" on page 32 as it has, in 2023.
I know there is an argument to be made that the history of rocketry is very much intertwined with military models, instruments of destruction. I get that, and there is no getting around it. As a builder/collector, I can pick and choose which historic models interest me, and which I'd rather not work with, though I can't help but notice how they are presented and promoted. I've built and flown the V2 - it was not sold with Nazi symbol decals or promoted as "inspirational".
The model on page 32 does not seem to be based on any rocket of any historic importance, the marketing blurb indicating that "Inspired by Russian military design, this scale-like model is sure to enthuse the most dedicated rocketeer." As a dedicated rocketeer, I find this insulting.
Think about this, this rocket was in the 2019 through 2022 catalogs, but without any marketing blurb - as was the style for those years. That means that over the last year of catalog decisions and preparation, someone at Estes decided there was something "inspiring" about the Russian military and its actions over the past 12 months, much of it involving rockets specifically targeting civilians, and put that in the catalog released this month.
Estes is in many ways the core of this hobby for me. So many pages and models were cut from the catalog, but this one was retained, in the same nationalist livery, bolstered with new "inspired" marketing language. By a U.S. company. I just don't get it.

 

[CalebJ]

Inspired by a -design- doesn't mean they're inspired by a nation or it's choices.

 

[DigBaddy]

Perhaps they want to eliminate it, so they dressed it up to help with that?

 

[lakeroadster]

I'm not one to mix "politics" with a fun hobby like model rocketry.
But I am disappointed to no end with Estes' decisions to feature the model SA-2061 "Sasha" on page 32 as it has, in 2023.
I know there is an argument to be made that the history of rocketry is very much intertwined with military models, instruments of destruction. I get that, and there is no getting around it. As a builder/collector, I can pick and choose which historic models interest me, and which I'd rather not work with, though I can't help but notice how they are presented and promoted. I've built and flown the V2 - it was not sold with Nazi symbol decals or promoted as "inspirational".
The model on page 32 does not seem to be based on any rocket of any historic importance, the marketing blurb indicating that "Inspired by Russian military design, this scale-like model is sure to enthuse the most dedicated rocketeer." As a dedicated rocketeer, I find this insulting.
Think about this, this rocket was in the 2019 through 2022 catalogs, but without any marketing blurb - as was the style for those years. That means that over the last year of catalog decisions and preparation, someone at Estes decided there was something "inspiring" about the Russian military and its actions over the past 12 months, much of it involving rockets specifically targeting civilians, and put that in the catalog released this month.
Estes is in many ways the core of this hobby for me. So many pages and models were cut from the catalog, but this one was retained, in the same nationalist livery, bolstered with new "inspired" marketing language. By a U.S. company. I just don't get it.

If our purchasing power is based on calling out historic injustice, your logic confuses me since you seem to be ok with the V2.

But for perspective, about every Estes rocket kit is made in China... "an estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China."

China's history is the creation of the greatest mass murderer of the 20th century. You ok with that?

History... learn it, live it, love it.

 

[cls]

I guess you are entitled to you feelings. But some of that is not correct. Especially this:

The model on page 32 does not seem to be based on any rocket of any historic importance,

Sasha model is at least 3 years old, I bought one when it was new.

Sasha is obviously based on what NATO calls SA-2 Guideline, or S75 Dvina in Russian.

Sorry if you don't like the design. I think it's handsome, and it fought well in the cold war. Shot down two U2 flights, yes that Gary Powers. Couldn't touch the SR71s, heh heh. Was a total shock when the north Vietnamese deployed them and made a mess of American air power. Egypt used it to good effect against the Israeli air force.

More here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina

You can see a real one at the National Air and Space Museum

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/sa-2-guideline-missile/nasm_A19850424000

 

[neil_w]

Hmm. Here is the whole description:

Inspired by a -design- doesn't mean they're inspired by a nation or it's choices.

Yes, this is point #1. I think the OP is putting way too much weight on the words "inspired by".

Point #2: similarly, the model "enthusing the most dedicated rocketeer" has nothing whatsoever to do with Russia.

Warcraft from enemy regimes have always been a staple of modelers since forever. It does not imply admiration of the nation of origin.

 

[mh9162013]

Replace "inspired" with "based." Does that make any difference to you, OP?

 

[Scott_650]

Just a tiny slice of unsolicited advice - when you have to try this hard to find something to get emotionally involved with it’s a pretty good indicator that life is good, enjoy it while you can - there is plenty of potential adversity in the world just waiting to create misery in your life without going around looking for some.

 

[Pappy]

i'm thinking Estes is concerned with moving product, not promoting russian propaganda. that copy was probably written years ago and just used as catalog filler now.

I too have some issues now with the red star and what it represents, so i will not be owning the sasha for that reason.

regarding the V2, it's arguably the most significant rocket ever built. hard to draw that line in the sand if you love rocketry.

 

[dhbarr]

Think about this, this rocket was in the 2019 through 2022 catalogs, but without any marketing blurb - as was the style for those years. That means that over the last year of catalog decisions and preparation, someone at Estes decided there was something "inspiring" about the Russian military and its actions over the past 12 months, much of it involving rockets specifically targeting civilians, and put that in the catalog released this month.

Similar phrasing has been on the website for this rocket since at least 2020.
https://web.archive.org/web/20201001044017/https://estesrockets.com/product/007271-sasha/Maybe don't read so much of current events into marketing materials written in 2019?

 

[Antares JS]

It's not a scale model. If you don't like the Russian/Soviet styling, toss the decal sheet and paint it a different way. It's a cool rocket. I've had one for a couple of years.

 

[neil_w]

I want to put aside the unnecessary focus on the words "inspired by" (which, again, are completely innocent in this context), and get to the more interesting issues. I'll see if I can do this without veering into taboo areas.

The comparison between the Sasha and the V2 is apt. I wonder, though: would folks have been enthusiastically modeling the V2 during WWII? I don't know the answer. Did airplane modelers build Zeros during WWII?

Today, even as we build V2 models, it is indeed true that we usually won't decorate them with swastikas. Certainly, you won't find any swastikas in an Estes catalog. So is a Russian/Soviet-style paint job any different?

Well, the green and red paint scheme hasn't yet taken on the same sort of visceral symbolic impact as the swastika. If you start putting big white Zs on it, though, then I would say you are treading on thin ice, unless you're actively rooting for Russia in the current war.

The big question is: what does a scale (or scale-like) model represent? Some might say that it represents some level of admiration for the subject, and therefore reject it under some circumstances. Modelers, though, seem to compartmentalize pretty well: they can find appeal in the technology and appearance of the subject, without implicitly going beyond that into worrying about what it represents. I do not know if this is a good or bad thing.

I happen to love the Sasha. I don't have one, but have considered buying it on a number of occasions. And yet, I don't think I'd want a big Russian-looking model on my rocket wall right now. Maybe I won't ever again. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised or angry if Estes pulled the model from their catalog. But I'm also not terribly surprised or angry that they're keeping it, for the moment at least. That could change.

 

[mh9162013]

i'm thinking Estes is concerned with moving product, not promoting russian propaganda. that copy was probably written years ago and just used as catalog filler now.

Agreed

I too have some issues now with the red star and what it represents, so i will not be owning the sasha for that reason.

regarding the V2, it's arguably the most significant rocket ever built. hard to draw that line in the sand if you love rocketry.

It's not that hard, although having zero interest in the V2's overall design and looks helps avoid that rocket, though.

 

[trialsguy]

The Der Red Max has been around for ever. As someone said above - modeler like modeling stuff from other regimes, even if it involves a Nazi regime.

Just check out any radio controlled “warbird fly-in event” (or photo coverage online). You’ll see lots of models there from many countries.

 

[mh9162013]

The big question is: what does a scale (or scale-like) model represent? Some might say that it represents some level of admiration for the subject, and therefore reject it under some circumstances. Modelers, in general, seem to compartmentalize pretty well: they can find appeal in the technology and appearance of the subject, without implicitly going beyond that into worrying about what it represents. I do not know if this is a good or bad thing.

Great point and insight there

 

[Antares JS]

The Der Red Max has been around for ever. As someone said above - modeler like modeling stuff from other regimes, even if it involves a Nazi regime.

Der Red Max is WWI/Red Baron themed, not Nazi themed.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Doesn't bother me at all

 

[David_Stack]

In a related vein...

Should Really Koo Stuff cease production of their N1 kits, or modelers invoke a boycott of those offerings? To me it seems a shame to think that either of those scenarios would happen.

 

[Titan II]

I'm not one to mix "politics" with a fun hobby like model rocketry. But.......

Then don't. Funny thing about people, such as you, who make an issue of such things. You typically increase sales. Now that I know about it, I think I will get one someday

https://www.amazon.com/Estes-SA-206...refix=sa-2061+sasha,garden,514&sr=1-1-catcorr
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-sasha-good-looking-little-rocket.175606/#post-2338952
https://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=18185

 

[Back_at_it]

I don't normally get involved in threads like this as they are clearly meant to mix politics. At the end of the day, if you don't like it, turn the page and keep going.

You can always build the kit and paint it anyway you like. If a description and couple of stickers bother you that much don't buy it.

 

[Tramper Al]

I do appreciate the (very few) replies that acknowledged some nuance, some gray area, the V2 example, and the inherent conflict among those of us who love model rockets, but hate war. I certainly did not expect agreement, or it likely wouldn't be in the catalog to begin with.
I won't respond to the many posts of ridicule, whataboutism, or turn the page and shut up. Disappointing.
I searched all of the catalogs again, and cannot find the use of the marketing blurb prior to 2023, but accept that it may have been "carried over" from previous years, before the start of the current wider conflict in Ukraine.
If the SA-2061 is an actual Russian military rocket, I still can't find it. Would that make it better? Googling the name just yields pages and pages of the Estes product. I don't know if it is the kind of rocket or missile currently being used by Russia to kill and terrorize civilians.
I still contend that Estes staff had a chance over the past 12 months to look at page 32 and ask out loud whether it was a good idea, in late 2022 and 2023, to feature a model glorifying Russian military weaponry and symbols. What self-respecting American company would have made and sold a V1 or V2 rocket model (or anything inspired by) with German markings in wartime 1944, at the same time those weapons were being used to kill and terrorize our friends and allies in Britain?

 

[rharshberger]

I do appreciate the (very few) replies that acknowledged some nuance, some gray area, the V2 example, and the inherent conflict among those of us who love model rockets, but hate war. I certainly did not expect agreement, or it likely wouldn't be in the catalog to begin with.
I won't respond to the many posts of ridicule, whataboutism, or turn the page and shut up. Disappointing.
I searched all of the catalogs again, and cannot find the use of the marketing blurb prior to 2023, but accept that it may have been "carried over" from previous years, before the start of the current wider conflict in Ukraine.
If the SA-2061 is an actual Russian military rocket, I still can't find it. Would that make it better? Googling the name just yields pages and pages of the Estes product. I don't know if it is the kind of rocket or missile currently being used by Russia to kill and terrorize civilians.
I still contend that Estes staff had a chance over the past 12 months to look at page 32 and ask out loud whether it was a good idea, in late 2022 and 2023, to feature a model glorifying Russian military weaponry and symbols. What self-respecting American company would have made and sold a V1 or V2 rocket model (or anything inspired by) with German markings in wartime 1944, at the same time those weapons were being used to kill and terrorize our friends and allies in Britain?

The SA-2061 is nothing more than a fantasy rocket, from the mind of John Boren iirc.

 

[Titan II]

If the SA-2061 is an actual Russian military rocket, I still can't find it.

Nobody, here, or at Estes, said it was.

 

[kuririn]

I do appreciate the (very few) replies that acknowledged some nuance, some gray area, the V2 example, and the inherent conflict among those of us who love model rockets, but hate war. I certainly did not expect agreement, or it likely wouldn't be in the catalog to begin with.
I won't respond to the many posts of ridicule, whataboutism, or turn the page and shut up. Disappointing.
I searched all of the catalogs again, and cannot find the use of the marketing blurb prior to 2023, but accept that it may have been "carried over" from previous years, before the start of the current wider conflict in Ukraine.
If the SA-2061 is an actual Russian military rocket, I still can't find it. Would that make it better? Googling the name just yields pages and pages of the Estes product. I don't know if it is the kind of rocket or missile currently being used by Russia to kill and terrorize civilians.
I still contend that Estes staff had a chance over the past 12 months to look at page 32 and ask out loud whether it was a good idea, in late 2022 and 2023, to feature a model glorifying Russian military weaponry and symbols. What self-respecting American company would have made and sold a V1 or V2 rocket model (or anything inspired by) with German markings in wartime 1944, at the same time those weapons were being used to kill and terrorize our friends and allies in Britain?

The SA-2061 Sasha is not an actual Russian missile, but as the text on the webpage says, it is "inspired by Russian military design". It looks very similar to the Lavochkin V-1000 anti ballistic missile.

Shorten the booster airframe and it is dead on.
Your sensitivities regarding the current geopolitical situation is duly noted.
However this is not the first time Estes has marketed a kit of an adversarial nations' hardware.
Remember the Russian Scud missile kit several decades ago?
And this was around the time of the Cold War, if I'm not mistaken.
I think that most young model rocketeers could care less about the political situation in the world. They just want a model that looks cool.

 

[cls]

If the SA-2061 is an actual Russian military rocket, I still can't find it

Do you know how to read?!? Sheesh. What did I post? And 3 other folks gave you direct info, too.

 

[hcmbanjo]

As I remember, the Estes Sasha kit design was based on John Boren's scale entry from a NARAM a few years ago..

 

[smstachwick]

What I appreciate about DRM is that the livery is clearly tongue-in-cheek. The kill markings include a palm tree and an outhouse. The text is clearly not true German, rather it uses some idiosyncrasies and simple vocabulary of the language evoke the sound of German while actually being most intelligible as heavily accented English. "Motorverken" (Motor Workin'), "Nicht Stompen" (No Step/No Stompin'), "Mitt Grabben" (Handhold/ Hand Grabbin').

The Sasha's color scheme is actually more associated with their WWII-era tanks than with any missile system. It conveys the idea that it's Russian more than it imitates any actual Russian hardware. Maybe all it needs to be silly like DRM is some faux-Cyrillic lettering.

 

[rharshberger]

Also russian surface to air missles are not SA-xxxx that is a NATO/US designation the Russian version if it existed would probably be S-2061 just like the S-125 Pechora or Nevra (Russian name) is in NATO identification the SA-3 Goa (I have scale modeled it myself and its a great flier).

 

[MAT2000]

Either ditch the commie decals and have a generic pseudo-military style rocket or make your own decals of a bare-chested Putin riding the rocket in the same silly vein of the DRM.

 

[JRL303]

Lighten up Francis