Oroville Dam Auxiliary Spillway Failure

[ColumbiaNX01]

You can't set the community away from the dam, the community was there first.

I know. I am just say for future reference.

 

[Woody's Workshop]

There are so many damn in this country that get absolutely NO maintenance.
The one here at the air port is a good example.
Privately owned, it gets it's yearly inspection and nothing is done.
But on the other hand, I think damns are a good way to produce electricity and control run off and water resources.
There just needs to be a system in place to see the owners do maintenance.
The one here, was actually built with a power plant in it and it run the air port.
Since air mail dropped off with the building of the freeway infrastructure the air port and facilities fell to abandonment.
The property was sold and at the far North end a factory was built. The owner could care less about any part of the property except which make them money.

 

[DAllen]

Well duh!

You're the one that said you didn't understand why the dam is so far above so I was explaining. No need to be condescending.

That is how water pressure works. The water supply is higher then where it needs to go. What I am saying is the population does not need to be in direct direction under the dam. community could be off set a ways and still have good water pressure and still not get flooded if the unthinkable happens.


Well I am not and engineer because if I was things would be different. lol

So what is your solution? Move the town prior to building the dam? Moving the dam? Given any waterway there are limited spots where a dam and resulting reservoir can be built. Even if legal issues are set aside, geology and geography usually dictate location.

 

[DAllen]

There are so many damn in this country that get absolutely NO maintenance.
The one here at the air port is a good example.
Privately owned, it gets it's yearly inspection and nothing is done.
But on the other hand, I think damns are a good way to produce electricity and control run off and water resources.
There just needs to be a system in place to see the owners do maintenance.
The one here, was actually built with a power plant in it and it run the air port.
Since air mail dropped off with the building of the freeway infrastructure the air port and facilities fell to abandonment.
The property was sold and at the far North end a factory was built. The owner could care less about any part of the property except which make them money.

I could propose a solution but that would be deemed far too political for this thread.

 

[dave carver]

It's the laziness and collective stupidity of people to build in flood plains. Want an example? Japan. They build in the flats between mountain ridges along the coast then the earthquake....

There is a chain of 3 dams above Boise. Lucky Peak, an enormous earth filled dam, Arrowrock that when it was built was the tallest concrete dam in the world, long since surpassed, and Anderson Ranch dam, another earth dam. Anderson Ranch feeds Arrowrock, it feeds into Lucky Peak. Anderson Ranch dam is high in the mountains near the area of an 8.6 earthquake. Arrowdock is an old dam, there has been worry about it's age. Lucky Peak dam is pretty solid but if something happens when the system is full there's the chance of a cascading failure of all 3 and bye bye Boise......

 

[ColumbiaNX01]

You're the one that said you didn't understand why the dam is so far above so I was explaining. No need to be condescending.



So what is your solution? Move the town prior to building the dam? Moving the dam? Given any waterway there are limited spots where a dam and resulting reservoir can be built. Even if legal issues are set aside, geology and geography usually dictate location.

Yes, sure. They move a lot of towns when they want to build a lake. I know of a handful in kansas and oklahoma. The town was in a valley so they moved the town. The good of the few out way the good of the one. If a lake will benefit 100's of thousands of people then moving a few thousand people is no problem.

The world is black and white, one way or the other. Right or wrong. No middle. Dark side or light side.

 

[Woody's Workshop]

How many did China displace of it peoples to build that massive damn they just finished?
How many centuries of history were buried under the new lake crated?

 

[blackjack2564]

Dam........

Damned if ya do..............................Dam'd if ya don't!

 

[Incongruent]

The world is black and white, one way or the other. Right or wrong. No middle. Dark side or light side.

Only once intensely simplified and treated with bias.

 

[Incongruent]

How many did China displace of it peoples to build that massive damn they just finished?
How many centuries of history were buried under the new lake crated?

On the other hand, how many tons af carbon dioxide aren't going into the atmosphere?

 

[Woody's Workshop]

There will always be that problem in China.
They refuse to mandate clean air standards.

On the other hand, how many tons af carbon dioxide aren't going into the atmosphere?

 

[Incongruent]

There will always be that problem in China.
They refuse to mandate clean air standards.

Presence does not determine magnitude.

 

[DAllen]

Wow I just got chastised for being political.

How about being off topic? Way off topic?

 

[Steve Shannon]

I have seen items that are designed to fail once a certain limit has been reached, electrical fuzes are one such. trailer brakes (surge brakes) have a cable to active the 'break-away' system, they have a link designed to fail once the emergency system is activated.
Rex

That's exactly right. Each of those examples is something that is not necessary to the proper operation of something, but has been added to protect that device from being damaged by extreme operating conditions. As such those things are working correctly when they do "fail", just like the spillway on a dam. And, sometimes, just like the Orville dam, there's a secondary line of protection. For example, some devices have a resettable circuit breaker and a fuse. Ordinarily the circuit breaker will open and can be reset, but if that first line of defense truly fails to operate (which in this case means it continues to pass current) then the fuse will blow.
In the case of Orville, my corrected understanding is that the main spillway developed a hole, so the emergency spillway had to be used (Thanks to Rex R for the gentle correction). DAllen is right that infrastructure maintenance is key. It sounds like there were warnings fairly recently about the dam. When your state is in a historic drought the conditions of dams sometimes fall to a lower priority. Also, this was an earthen dam. What happens an earthen dam that first has dried out because of a historic drought and then fills, rather abruptly, due to water rising at an unprecedented rate and to a level not seen recently? This will be an entry in the dam safety annals I suspect.


Steve Shannon

 

[Frederocket]

Wow I just got chastised for being political.

How about being off topic? Way off topic?

Looking back at your postingss in this thread, if you were chastised for political posting, the chastiser must of had a bee in their bonnet...:lol:

 

[Onebadhawk]

Hank,,
I was absolutely unaware you were in harms way...
My prayers are with you..
Be very safe and keep an ear to the ground so to speak...
Always Hank,,,
If I can do anything to help,, I wish I could...

Teddy

What about you Kit ??
Your in no danger ???
I thought you lived pretty close to Hank....

 

[Rex R]

the problems started when the main spillway developed a large 'hole', which prompted the use of the emergency spillway.
Rex

 

[o1d_dude]

Update: Friday, the spillway is operating at a much redoced capacity today and effots are being diected to reopening the power plant at the base of earthern dam. The power plant had been shut down when main spillway (downstream) drove debris (trees, soil, concrete chunks, etc) upstream into the power plant outlet.

Looks like everything is under control at Oroville and the Los Angeles region will be inundated by the Mother of All Storms today. Best avoid the LA River today. Rainfall being predicted in "inches per hour". Many dams, reservoirs, canals, etc. in the LA area and soft hillsides with houses on them to be concerned about.

It never rains in California, right?

 

[Woody's Workshop]

It never rains in California, right?

I believe the song goes Southern California...

 

[Steve Shannon]

the problems started when the main spillway developed a large 'hole', which prompted the use of the emergency spillway.
Rex

You're right, sorry. Apparently I don't know my main spillway from my emergency.

 

[o1d_dude]

#CAStorm on twitter for those interested in following up to the minute reports on the 20 year storm in Los Angeles.

Dept of Water Resources on TV giving comprehensive update. Sheriff says NO looting occurred during the evacuation period contrary to fake news reports. Removal of the debris pile at the foot of the spillway began at 8AM this morning which will allow the power plant to resume operation. The power plant when operating contibutes to lowering the water level behind the dam.

 

[KidRockET]

...contrary to fake news reports...

Was it Brian Williams again...

 

[hball55]

You're correct Kit. The initial report of looting, repeated by me, was due to an individual who broke out the window to a business. Authorities also mentioned that there were burglaries, but said there's always burglaries. Authorities consider looting to be the systematic cleaning out of a location by crowds of people. That didn't happen.

As for power generation, the powerplant can handle up to 7,000 CFS, which isn't a whole lot compared to the main spillway that can dump up to 200,000 CFS when it was undamaged. They say the river channel is rated for up to 150,000 CFS, so that 200,000 CFS figure, if ever used, would be for short periods only, if ever.

 

[markkoelsch]

The world is black and white, one way or the other. Right or wrong. No middle. Dark side or light side.

Andrew, typically oversimplified response. The universe is not as simple as you would believe.

The biggest fault was not in making the improvements to the dam 12 years ago. That was a political failure- no doubt about that. The engineers etc. recommended them- the fault was not theirs.

I do have a question- why earthen dams? Is it a cost issue? Seems to me that a steel reinforced concrete dam would be much more durable.

 

[DavidMcCann]

In other news, Glad to hear you're doing ok. The food issue is one to take seriously. There are a bunch of people who prepare for the "end of the world" or "SHTF" Those people are insane, and if you know any, just keep them in mind in case anything crazy does happen. They'll likely be the first to get themselves killed and be a great place to go shopping later.


But in all logical terms, I try to keep around 3 months of canned and dry food around. Pasta and sauce is cheap and stores forever. I buy chicken and beef 100 pounds at a time from restaurant supply stores and freeze it in a deep freezer. The savings are nice, though it takes a bit of trimming and packaging work. Hell, even a few boxes of ramen and a case of spaghetti-o's can keep you good through most typical floods/snowstorms/power outages etc.

 

[boatgeek]

I do have a question- why earthen dams? Is it a cost issue? Seems to me that a steel reinforced concrete dam would be much more durable.

Reinforced concrete is a heck of a lot more expensive and technology-intensive. If the conditions are right for an earth dam, it may be the right solution, provided the spillways, etc. are properly built and maintained *cough*. For example, one of my engineering professors told me about three dams straddling the San Andreas fault that were basically built in the early 20th century with earth movers to bring the dirt and large flocks of sheep* to compact it. Those dams have done fine through a lot of earthquakes.

* Sheep are apparently one of the best ways to compact dirt, which is why they have to be spread out in pastures or they'll kill the grass. I have another story about elephants and a dam in Thailand, but don't want to threadjack unless people want to hear it.

 

[DAllen]

Reinforced concrete is a heck of a lot more expensive and technology-intensive. If the conditions are right for an earth dam, it may be the right solution, provided the spillways, etc. are properly built and maintained *cough*. For example, one of my engineering professors told me about three dams straddling the San Andreas fault that were basically built in the early 20th century with earth movers to bring the dirt and large flocks of sheep* to compact it. Those dams have done fine through a lot of earthquakes.

* Sheep are apparently one of the best ways to compact dirt, which is why they have to be spread out in pastures or they'll kill the grass. I have another story about elephants and a dam in Thailand, but don't want to threadjack unless people want to hear it.

Exactly, ready mix concrete (depending on specification, application) costs roughly $100/CYD and that's just the concrete which does not include reinforcing steel, site preparation, engineering, etc. etc.

 

[markkoelsch]

Exactly, ready mix concrete (depending on specification, application) costs roughly $100/CYD and that's just the concrete which does not include reinforcing steel, site preparation, engineering, etc. etc.

That is the answer I was looking for. Not being in construction I would not know that. Considering the size off this dam that would be a heck of a lot of concrete.

 

[DAllen]

That is the answer I was looking for. Not being in construction I would not know that. Considering the size off this dam that would be a heck of a lot of concrete.

Yep. I am a construction technician and I work on bridges, sewers, highways, etc so I sort of live eat and breath some of this haha.

You might be able to reduce the cost a bit by letting whoever is doing the work bring in a portable concrete plant which might be cost effective for a dam this size since it eliminates the need for mixer trucks and reduces overall trucking. I have no idea where the break even point is on yardage to make an operation worthwhile. The reduction in costs wouldn't be a lot I imagine.

So compare that $100/CYD cost for material to what I would guess to be $30/CYD for compacted dirt. Again, that depends on how tight the engineers specifications are and the local availability of materials.

And I gotta say, in all my years as a construction tech I have never heard of sheep being an effective compaction method. I'll have to bring that up to my engineer sometime haha.

 

[Peartree]

And I gotta say, in all my years as a construction tech I have never heard of sheep being an effective compaction method. I'll have to bring that up to my engineer sometime haha.

There might be something to that. After all, these big pices of construction equipment are referred to as a "Sheepfoot."