Open letter; Concerns about TRF policy.

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Todd Moore

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Attn: TRF moderators
CC: TRF users.

I have been a TRF reader and casual poster for the past few years. I monitor most on-line rocketry forums, and do a little posting to each of them. I am writing to you today to bring to light a problem that I find MOST irritating, and will likely cause me to limit my involvement with this forum.

Over the past few weeks, two threads that I have been involved in have been completely yanked, due to one or two ‘inappropriate’ posts in the thread. I am not here to judge weather or not the posts were appropriate, but I must condemn the practice of yanking ENTIRE threads.

Moderators, PLEASE use a scalpel when pruning what you might consider to be questionable posts, as opposed to the AXE that you so frequently yield and swing. I am growing tired of contributing to this community, when my contributions can be placed in the trash bin just because of the company they may keep.

And please, I don’t need to hear about how much ‘work’ it would be to cut individual posts from threads as opposed to hacking the whole thing. I, along with many others, had a lot of work into making these threads what they were. The least you can do is perform your duties as moderator with respect for our work.

TRF tends to ‘lead the league’ in misinformation, due to its policy of not allowing vigorous disagreement. I have seen several inaccuracies go unchallenged here, because people are often too afraid to call a turd what it is, and risk the wrath of a moderator. As a group, you seem to be VERY conscious of issues of liability. Let me tell you – Some of the unchallenged, incorrect information on this forum is potentially dangerous, and will lead to the same liability issues that you try to avoid with your anti EX stance. But hey – this is your sandbox, to do with as you wish. If the current trends continue, however, I along with many others I know, may not come out to play as often.

Respectfully,
 
Originally posted by Todd Moore
Attn: TRF moderators
CC: TRF users.


TRF tends to ‘lead the league’ in misinformation, due to its policy of not allowing vigorous disagreement. I have seen several inaccuracies go unchallenged here, because people are often too afraid to call a turd what it is, and risk the wrath of a moderator. As a group, you seem to be VERY conscious of issues of liability. Let me tell you – Some of the unchallenged, incorrect information on this forum is potentially dangerous, and will lead to the same liability issues that you try to avoid with your anti EX stance. But hey – this is your sandbox, to do with as you wish. If the current trends continue, however, I along with many others I know, may not come out to play as often.


And I thought it was just me.

The statement "you seem to be very conscious of issues of liability" should have unconscious replace it. And I'm not trying to torture TRF here. If this was an unmoderated forum and someone got hurt based on misinformation as long as it was know as a 'use at your own risk' advise forum, no problem. When you axe posts you are tellng newbies that what you have left is all correct information. YOU HAVE VALDATED THE INFORMATION.......I think you see where I'm going with this.

My suggestion, change the format, one senior forum for serious folks who want, as best as can be provided, correct information from the people with the experience. This would not allow modertors to meddle with the posts and it would be self correcting.

The second moderated forum could be for those who just want a place to do whatever it is they do here. If you need a serious question asked there will be a place to go. I noticed someone repsonding to his own posts presumably to 'increase his poster count'. He could do that in the junior forum, but would have his manners corrected should he decide to waste someone's time in the senior forum.

My suggestion comes simply because misinformation is no good for this hobby, and you discourage correction.

My annoyance with copyright infringement is documented throughout the forum. Plain and simple give credit where credit is due, and ask premission. But moderators do notseem to be the least bit interested. This is why I post almost no pics and little video, I have no time for the disrespectful group who feel they can do whatever they like. They suffer, they don't see it.

Simply put the mods are protecting the wrong posters. I bellieve if there was an unmoderated area it would be healthy for the forum. No one knows it all and (most people, obviously not all) can learn a lot every day. But those who invest their time to help people shouldn't have folks dropping incorrect posts in a serious thread. This would make the moderators job a lot easier. Consider it, right now the misinformation is a bad thing.

If you want to bounce me for this post, oh well. I left here once and only returned because I was told in an email to go on TRF as someone has made a mess of information about a project of mine. Misinformation brought me back, ironic, eh?


Chuck

Did Todd say turd? ;-)
 
"TRF tends to ‘lead the league’ in misinformation, due to its policy of not allowing vigorous disagreement. I have seen several inaccuracies go unchallenged here, because people are often too afraid to call a turd what it is, and risk the wrath of a moderator. As a group, you seem to be VERY conscious of issues of liability. Let me tell you – Some of the unchallenged, incorrect information on this forum is potentially dangerous, and will lead to the same liability issues that you try to avoid with your anti EX stance. But hey – this is your sandbox, to do with as you wish. If the current trends continue, however, I along with many others I know, may not come out to play as often."


Amen. The number of technically inaccurate posts is astounding. I'd like to urge people to think before you type. Do your research and refrain from giving advice on things out of your league.

-Todd Harrison
 
I sure would like to hear some of these technical innacuracies.

Astound me, please!

Not being sarcastic...I just want to hear some examples.

I may not even have read those posts you're talking about.
 
Originally posted by sandman
I sure would like to hear some of these technical innacuracies.

Astound me, please!

Not being sarcastic...I just want to hear some examples.

I may not even have read those posts you're talking about.

I went on two threads I hadn't been on.....and guess what

"oxidation? do you mean moisturization? im not sure if the delay grains are hydroscopic, but i'd guess not, since i've had motors out in the open for almost a year and they've lit and ejected fine."

When people ask questions they aren't asking for questions. The correct answer is oxidation. If you have to guess keep the piehole shut.
 
The "beef" here, I take it, is in relation to EX propulsion, high power, "on the limits" stuff. I don't participate in that part of the hobby, and therefore rarely read stuff pertaining to it.

I've found that the threads that I read (modelling, low power, etc.) to have some good and accurate information in them.

The whole copywright enfirngement thing is another matter altogether. As someone who builds, collects, and flies mod rocs, I haven't had any issues there (although I find reading discussions on the matter that come up from time to time to be quite tedious at best.)
 
I may be a little out of my league also in posting on this(I am sure I have posted something "inaccurate" sometime...), but that example was not what I would call "misinformation" as you stated before. Yes, there may be some misinfo out there but that example might have been more of a misunderstanding.
 
I'd like to ask the people who have posted something.

How would you see what you are asking for without allowing this somewhat PC rated forum to slide into the abusive morass that is RMR?

Todd Moore - I wrote you a private note, however your statement that incorrect information is left behind because people are afraid to post is intriguing. I have seen some serious posts that seemed to leave good discussion behind. However, I am one of those who all but fled RMR because I grew tired of the needless political diatribes and the downright poor behavior of a handful of people who hijack almost every thread for their own personal ends. What you write seems to be in conflict with what Chuck said in that surgical moderation is more dangerous than just wiping out a hostile thread.

Chuck - What you say about copyright infringement is absolutely true, nobody should be allowed to misuse copyrighted material. However, this is a semi public forum, why would anyone post something here if they wanted no chance that it may be misused. For the record, I agree with you on the concept for an area with less moderation. The question is does less moderation mean you have to be able to withstand RMR type abusive discussions? For the record, I think post count building is silly, however if you look at the people most likely to do it, you will find they are on the younger side.

Todd Harrison - unfortunately, the way things often get moderated, I cannot speak to what you say.

I kind of like this place. The benefits outweigh, in my opinion, the flaws. I have often asked and the same number of times been refused to see changes that would make the forum a bit more technical in nature. I have been disappointed by this, however I continue to stick around as I find TRF way better than the alternatives.

A
 
"To correct an unstable rocket, you can also add fins to the nose. as long as your launch rail is long enough, it works pretty good, in my experience with it."
 
Originally posted by Chuck Rudy
I went on two threads I hadn't been on.....and guess what

"oxidation? do you mean moisturization? im not sure if the delay grains are hydroscopic, but i'd guess not, since i've had motors out in the open for almost a year and they've lit and ejected fine."

When people ask questions they aren't asking for questions. The correct answer is oxidation. If you have to guess keep the piehole shut.

Hmmm.... there must be more to the story.

This seems to me to be a fine environment to make such a post and receive and accurate correction from someone else (like yourself perhaps?)

What I mean - put in your two cents. If your two cents is off base, someone will correct you and you've learned from the experience (at least that's how I approach it around here.)
 
I sure would like to hear some of these technical innacuracies.

Astound me, please!
-----

Sure I could point out some threads, but there is the chance that the moderators would misinterpret my intent. By singling out people for their dumb comments, I'm sure I would be accused of a personal attack on that person and promptly be banned.

-Todd Harrison
 
Originally posted by DPatell
"To correct an unstable rocket, you can also add fins to the nose. as long as your launch rail is long enough, it works pretty good, in my experience with it."

IIRC, he was corrected on that.
 
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
For the record, I agree with you on the concept for an area with less moderation. The question is does less moderation mean you have to be able to withstand RMR type abusive discussions? For the record, I think post count building is silly, however if you look at the people most likely to do it, you will find they are on the younger side.


HR

I'm looking forward to your show this summer, good luck with the weather. We'll be there with something ;-) .....and the video camera



RMR has filters which allow me to really enjoy that forum. It is quite a simple thing, this forum has none, so there's no way to filter out the excessive posters. The first thing I would do is eliminate that stupid ∂55 count number.

Withstand RMR type abuse? RMR has incredible information when you ask, it also has about 5 who can't keep the old piehole in check, they are in my killfile and I have a very pleasant time on RMR and even get a lot of laughs from it. RMR is whatever you want it to be. But don't post stupidity you will pay severely. Answer only if you know.

This forum has to take a look at itself and ask if it wants to continue down a silly road and go status quo or become a smarter forum where people are not afraid to ask intelligent and perplexing questions without getting a guess or the one I love "I've never done it but a friend told me he knows of someone who......" Whoa that put another one in the old post column.

Thanks for looking at it with an open mind.

Chuck
 
I've tried searching for some information on R.M.R. and have been confronted with information that hasn't been validated any more than it is here. Even worse is the fact that the threads get hijacked. TRFers seem to be able to say on track better.

The second moderated forum could be for those who just want a place to do whatever it is they do here. If you need a serious question asked there will be a place to go. I noticed someone repsonding to his own posts presumably to 'increase his poster count'. He could do that in the junior forum, but would have his manners corrected should he decide to waste someone's time in the senior forum.

I would be afraid to post in a senior forum. You'd scare away the younger ones who still want a question answered. I'd be afraid of the response to a simple question that I might not have known the answer to. Bad idea in my IMHO.

I'm with Hospital_Rocket here. I prefer this place to R.M.R.

Another thought: I would like this place to be a forum to ask tough scientific question though. Sometimes I have tougher questions (aerodynamics) that I would like answered but I'm afraid of a flame war I might start on R.M.R. from some of my own immaturity.
 
"This forum has to take a look at itself and ask if it wants to continue down a silly road and go status quo or become a smarter forum where people are not afraid to ask intelligent and perplexing questions without getting a guess or the one I love "I've never done it but a friend told me he knows of someone who......" Whoa that put another one in the old post column."

I couldn't agree more. People also shouldn't overlook the search features of TRF, RMR and ROL. Many questions can be answered just by browsing through the archives.

-Todd Harrison
 
Originally posted by Todd Moore
TRF tends to ‘lead the league’ in misinformation, due to its policy of not allowing vigorous disagreement. I have seen several inaccuracies go unchallenged here, because people are often too afraid to call a turd what it is, and risk the wrath of a moderator.

An inaccuracy is not a turd. If you just call it a turd, you're doing nothing to correct the inaccuracy.

Correcting an inaccuracy does not require vigorous anything nor calling it anything other than what it is. It does require rigorous proof from rigorously derived data.

Speaking of presenting data, I will, and of calling a turd a turd when calling the inaccuracy would suffice, you're wrong. Just take in the first 4 messages:

https://rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12592

It's still there despite the unnecessary turdism.

If you by chance happen to have something of value to add which should make people concerned that you might take your ball and go home, the level of maturity shown by threatening to take your ball and go home instead of applying it directly and correcting inaccuracies, tends to negate any such value. Stating it civilly is appreciated, but doesn't really do a lot to mitigate what it does to your reputation and so the value of your corrections.
 
Chuck

I gave up on filters, because the net result was choppy dialogues that were all but impossible for me to follow. What I do now, is prospect for information. I keep track of those who I think have something I can learn from and when a discussion gets asinine, i just ignore the whole thread. I seldom post anymore as I grew weary of being called un-American or an idiot because I do not agree with those folks who seem to live there. For the record, I wore a uniform for 12 years and have eight years of post HS education that together dispel either of those viewpoints.

I encourage you to stick around here. I really like some of the stuff you do and want to learn some of the techniques you use in some of your video work. Yes, some of it will wear on your patience, but a gentle nudge every now and then does wonders. Keep in mind, the people here are not the zealots that live on RMR and respond differently to criticism.

Al
 
Good Doctor,

The crux of my position has little to do with the inaccuracies. That was a just a sidebar tangent, that seems to be quite popular with some other people.

My main issue regards the removing of complete threads, where inaccuracies ARE corrected, due to a single quasi-abusive post.

I appreciate your reply. Please try to look at this objectively.

Thank you.
 
... isn't the whole point to learn?

i mean, i personally have done some *beyond* stupid things that couldve blown my head off or scarred me, and people have told me what i was doing wrong... i mean, if you*think* your correct on something then when you post it you dont think of the fact that you might be incorrect, your trying to help somone

i personally enjoy how the mods are here...

and along with the whole "ex high power thing" i just have to say that im 14, im stupid enough to play with anything, so if somone was to post about how to make a motor with your moms cooking oil and some toilet paper (figurativly speaking) then i would of course, no matter how many people say do not attempt, and no matter how seemilngly unsafe it would be, try to make one...

as far as people saying that "hey, i heard that you can do something along the lines of..."

its advice! maybe not the best, and maybe your so far off and you have no idea of anything related to the topic, but its still your try...

i moderate a forum that maybe 40 people tops look at, and its beyond confusing... with something this big it must be horrible

spam and post count building comes with the nerdness of my life, and anyone who just discovered a "forum" is just amazed with the fact that they can say something, and it will go ****ONLINE!!!!!!11!!!****... eventually that excitement comes down a notch

now if a mod could get me to type with some vague grammatical correctness THAT would be astonoshing
 
Unfortunantly, I need to agree with most of what was said here.

Firstly, Chuck is very right on the copyright issues, My pictures have been taken from this forum (by forum members) and reposted. In these reposts THEY were given credit not me. It has also happened that much media has been reproduced here without ample credit.

I cannot express my frustration with the amount of horrible information which is thrown out on this forum. Often things are said which are completly rediculous, as Dan pointed out. I could point out more, and possibly identify a trend, however, I would probably get a nasty email from a moderator saying how I was the problem.

I think the main problem with this forum is; it is a breeding ground for people who think they know more than they do, and there is no one there to put them in their place. How many times have I seen people posting in the high power forum, giving people advice on how to build their L3 rocket, when they had launched some G motors.

Although many people complain about RMR, I need to say, that the information given there, although not as ample, is very valuble.

I will keep reading, though I have pretty much stopped posting, NOT because there is no EX talk, but because TRF has just degraded so much that I dont see the point in giving my opinion.
 
Originally posted by Ryan S.
Unfortunantly, I need to agree with most of what was said here.

Firstly, Chuck is very right on the copyright issues, My pictures have been taken from this forum (by forum members) and reposted. In these reposts THEY were given credit not me. It has also happened that much media has been reproduced here without ample credit.

I cannot express my frustration with the amount of horrible information which is thrown out on this forum. Often things are said which are completly rediculous, as Dan pointed out. I could point out more, and possibly identify a trend, however, I would probably get a nasty email from a moderator saying how I was the problem.

I think the main problem with this forum is; it is a breeding ground for people who think they know more than they do, and there is no one there to put them in their place. How many times have I seen people posting in the high power forum, giving people advice on how to build their L3 rocket, when they had launched some G motors.

Although many people complain about RMR, I need to say, that the information given there, although not as ample, is very valuble.

I will keep reading, though I have pretty much stopped posting, NOT because there is no EX talk, but because TRF has just degraded so much that I dont see the point in giving my opinion.



Obiviously you do not really care at all, otherwise you would try to correct people. Its not like you are going to get banned, and nothing at all will happen if you just tell them that they are wrong without being rude about it as people are a lot of times. I am glad when people point out that I am doing something wrong, but when they are rude, that a whole different story.

It really is not hard.
 
Moderated for correcting bad info?Oh,I just can't keep my piehole shut on this one.A couple of thoughts come to mind.First;Sometimes it's best just to let a sleeping turd lie.Second;No matter how hard you try you just can't polish a turd.;)
 
Originally posted by Chuck Rudy
This forum has to take a look at itself and ask if it wants to continue down a silly road and go status quo or become a smarter forum where people are not afraid to ask intelligent and perplexing questions without getting a guess or the one I love "I've never done it but a friend told me he knows of someone who......" Whoa that put another one in the old post column.


Amen, I have heard that quote way to many times

Originally posted by GL-P



I would be afraid to post in a senior forum. You'd scare away the younger ones who still want a question answered. I'd be afraid of the response to a simple question that I might not have known the answer to. Bad idea in my IMHO.

I'm with Hospital_Rocket here. I prefer this place to R.M.R.


I think you missed the point, if you had a legit question and you asked it, the seniors would be glad to help you, they just wouldnt put up with immaturity. Rocketeers are the nicest people, a rocket launch is one of the friendliest places to be. And people will help you, but not if you are an immature person who doesnt take their advice seriously.
 
I try to stick to posts that interest me, and add something if I can , I have been corrected many times, and I preferr to be corrected if I'm wrong.
I definately try not to post as much as I used to.

I don't have many gripes, but If I may mention one,
what drives me crazy are the threads in the wrong place and the ones that force you to open them to see what they are about.

titles like

- check this out
-has anybody done this
-question for the forum
-help
-how do I...
-rocket question

it's usually the same few offenders.
I can live with it ,but it chaps me to HAVE to open them.
 
Originally posted by Chuck Rudy
The statement "you seem to be very conscious of issues of liability" should have unconscious replace it. And I'm not trying to torture TRF here. If this was an unmoderated forum and someone got hurt based on misinformation as long as it was know as a 'use at your own risk' advise forum, no problem. When you axe posts you are tellng newbies that what you have left is all correct information. YOU HAVE VALDATED THE INFORMATION.......

That's not correct. Exercising editorial control in one respect is by no means validation of any other information presented in another respect, especially when presented by someone other than the owner or agent of the medium. Compuserve got dinged for this early on (editing users posts amounted to publishing in that opinion), but AOL later fought it and won, and that precendent now carries. It is now codified by the limited liability proferred under the DMCA.

I am not a lawyer, but this guy is: https://authorslawyer.com/ and he's who I learned enough from that I've served for him as both material and expert witness in ajudication of online infringement. If you want his offical opinion, his retainer is much more reasonable than most in his field.
 
Originally posted by GL-P
I would be afraid to post in a senior forum. You'd scare away the younger ones who still want a question answered. I'd be afraid of the response to a simple question that I might not have known the answer to. Bad idea in my IMHO...Sometimes I have tougher questions (aerodynamics) that I would like answered but I'm afraid of a flame war I might start on R.M.R. from some of my own immaturity.

G - Were the forum owners to create an advanced topics or "senior" forum, you should never be afraid to post a question there. The moment another member ridicules you for asking a question and even being a pest about the answer, then the proper moderator for such a forum would dope-slap the person giving you grief.

I do believe the community here needs to understand one thing, this place is run by a handful (six, I think) people on a part-time basis. To properly administer an area with fewer rules might be an overwhelming challenge. About the only way I could see it to work would be to bounce people from that forum who have shown they do not know how to behave. Of course then, that calls the question'

quisnam mos vigilo vigilo (who will watch the watchers?)

Al
 
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
Chuck


I encourage you to stick around here. I really like some of the stuff you do and want to learn some of the techniques you use in some of your video work. Yes, some of it will wear on your patience, but a gentle nudge every now and then does wonders. Keep in mind, the people here are not the zealots that live on RMR and respond differently to criticism.

Al

Patience is something is something which people seem to compliment me on very often. Even this thread has given me a few laughs, I guess I see the world a little differently. I don't mind questions, even my bud Jerry O asks me for advise from time to time and he's great with the lens. Sticking around is not an issue, I'll be around, it's just how often. I love to learn also, and digging out the kernels is getting tougher and tougher.

In fact I *may* post about the kid's science project, which is sitting right next to me and will do something a little different......or is that differently? But for the moment it doesn't exist. ;-) I just won't be posting any pics or vid. Private sessions only.

Chuck
 
Originally posted by Todd Moore
The crux of my position has little to do with the inaccuracies. That was a just a sidebar tangent, that seems to be quite popular with some other people.

My main issue regards the removing of complete threads, where inaccuracies ARE corrected, due to a single quasi-abusive post.
Mr. Moore,
Your main position is interesting. I would like to hear a response by the Moderators.
Your sidebar seems to be generating more interest in this thread than your main point.

Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
I kind of like this place. The benefits outweigh, in my opinion, the flaws.
A
Al, I agree with you, I like this place.

Now on to my personal thoughts:
  1. Caveat Emptor, or more appropriately, Rocketeer Beware. Al says TRF is a “semi-public” forum. For me, the Internet is an all-out open public forum. I like TRF moderators for this reason.
  2. I left RMR because I was tired of wading through all of the nonsense, to find useful accurate data and techniques. This place should not be a RMR clone.
  3. There are kids here, there are old-farts here, some have experience, some do not, some talk, some listen. Pay no attention to the errors, or challenge them if you wish.
  4. I have not seen a message-thread be yanked here. How about sharing an example so we can understand your point of view?
  5. If the topics in question revolve around experimental rocketry, then maybe another forum is the place for this information.
  6. If one does not like the company they keep, then find new friends.
  7. Why do post counts mean anything to anybody?
  8. What is up with all the turds?
    [/list=1] These are my opinions, nothing more and nothing less.
    Respectfully,
    Michael O’Malley
 
Please view RMR as a Coffee House of sorts.

In RMR, you have arguments. In TRF, you have "I'm really bored, so I posted a poll!" and "I have a new girlfriend."

Please get rid of the post count and I think the amount of legitimate information will increase.
 
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