Online ordering killing hobby shops

[accooper]

That is the answer. You must be a modeler to make this work. You can't be detached from the hobby that you wish to sell to.

Andrew

 

[dedleytedley]

The best idea to this is one I see. A hybrid store. Ken Allen of Performance Hobbies, has an online store, but also go to launches to sell product. If you need something, and are reasonably close he will meet you to deliver product.
I know there are others like this, but I have dealt with Ken quite a bit.

Tom

I guess you haven't read the recent thread discussing problems with Ken Allen and Performance hobbies online business practices. It illustrates very well some of the pitfalls when dealing with online vendors. The infamous Sheri is another good example! Ted

 

[rockets2000]

The LHS I go to was mentioned earlier. It's in Houston on I-45S at El Dorado. They have a fairly good selection of Estes and LOC kits and parts, and I've found their prices to be pretty competetive, so when I need something I'll go there first to see if they have it in stock.

 

[MarkII]

I never had a problem when I ordered from Performance Hobbies. I have also ordered from BRS Hobbies, Commonwealth Displays, Uncle Mike's, Red Arrow Hobbies, The Rocketry Zone, AtoZ Hobbies, eHobbies and Discount Rocketry and have been 100% satisfied with the service from all of them. And those are just the online "hobby shops" that I have patronized; then there are the specialty shops and the manufacturers' web stores, etc.

MarkII

 

[accooper]

Well from experience on ordering other things on line here is my suggestions:

NEVER use a debt card. Although Visa and Master Card say that debt cards have the same protection as credit cards, your bank is the one that has to honor this. 99.9999% of banks or credit unions don't.

GET A NAME of the ordering persons or persons before you order.

Call before you order! I called this company today for styrene, and I got the message, sorry but this number is no longer in service. But yet you could still order on line. Let me see....M mm...No thanks.

If you do use a debt card NEVER give out your pin number. My neighbor ordered Airline tickets on line and a minimum wadge worker stole over a 1000 dollars, and was never caught.

Also, just remember, not everyone you meet is an old rocket buddy. They may act like it, but they are in it for the money to try and make a living. I would have to see them at A LOT OF LAUNCHES, before I would give them money.

After 55 years of life, I have had my share of swindles. A year after I was married, I lost $1000 dollars on a custom black powder rifle I ordered from a guy who had come to some of our shoots. Gave him the money and never heard from him again.

Be careful.

Andrew From Texas

 

[RangerStl]

I guess you haven't read the recent thread discussing problems with Ken Allen and Performance hobbies online business practices. It illustrates very well some of the pitfalls when dealing with online vendors. The infamous Sheri is another good example! Ted

Well the guy with the "problem" was me and it really wasn't an earth-shattering incident. I was ordering based on what I saw on Ken's website. When it came time to fill the order, not all the items could be found. It took a couple phone calls and a couple weeks, but I got two of the four kits I really wanted, a third kit I had not planned to get initially but chose as an alternate, and a refund for the difference.

It would have been nicer to get everything I had initially wanted, but he took care of me and I have no complaints. Some people I have related the story to think I should have been more upset, but I didn't find it particularly traumatic. I won't discourage people from ordering from him, but I suggest you give a call first to make sure the item is in stock.

And, you're right. There are pitfalls to trying to run three sides of a business (Online, In Shop, On Site @ Launches) or even just one side.

N

 

[sunward]

.... About 1/3 of the shipments I've received were crushed by the postal services....

That is not normal. It would mean the products are not properly packaged.

.... So, I thought I'll try a courier, it only costs a little more. When the package arrived I had to pay an extra $30.00"customs fee"+ $7.34 GST!....

On shipments TO Canada, you should use a courier as a last resort. It is better to use the post office as the customs fees are much lower - $5.00.

 

[dedleytedley]

Well the guy with the "problem" was me and it really wasn't an earth-shattering incident. I was ordering based on what I saw on Ken's website. When it came time to fill the order, not all the items could be found. It took a couple phone calls and a couple weeks, but I got two of the four kits I really wanted, a third kit I had not planned to get initially but chose as an alternate, and a refund for the difference.

It would have been nicer to get everything I had initially wanted, but he took care of me and I have no complaints. Some people I have related the story to think I should have been more upset, but I didn't find it particularly traumatic. I won't discourage people from ordering from him, but I suggest you give a call first to make sure the item is in stock.

And, you're right. There are pitfalls to trying to run three sides of a business (Online, In Shop, On Site @ Launches) or even just one side.

N

In the aforementioned thread Terryg did NOT receive the paid for products, neither did Dallen's friend and Als57 said it took two years to receive a rocket for which he had paid $700.00!!! I'd link it here but I just don't know how.
Why should this hit or miss vendor get a pass when Sheri was harried from pillar to post?
I requested extra packaging for my order from Ken when I made it. I OFFERED to pay EXTRA for double boxing but was assured that it would be well packed. When it arrived mashed and broken open I was cordial in my communication with him and AFTER i offered to split the cost of replacements he agreed to make it good. Later he suddenly changed his mind and refused to talk further.
Does he deserve a pass because he hasn't got the guts to respond?
Ted

 

[accooper]

The problem I see it is that we, including me, let people like the guy who won't talk to your friend anymore, we, including me, give him a pass.

I feel that if a vendor(a fancy name for a seller), screws some one in a hobby I am in, and they don't tell me that store x or website x or person x has screw him over, I don't take to kindly to that.

if I think I will order from x person and you have warned me about them, you can bet that it will be hot in South Texas in the summer time before I order from them.

BUT on the other hand if you order something from Brand X and they notify you that it has been back ordered, or no longer made, and it takes a while(no more than three weeks) you really don't have anything to be mad at. Any longer than that I would be mad since it only takes a few key strokes on a key board to get you back your money.

My pet peeve right now is that I have ordered some really narrow masking tape from a company on line. I have yet to receive a receipt from them, although they have charged my card. I ordered last Friday. This is unacceptable. I have tried email, and calling them. Lucky for me I have the name of the order processor(I called before ordering).

I probably never order from them again unless they get on the ball and send me a receipt.

 

[RangerStl]

In the aforementioned thread Terryg did NOT receive the paid for products, neither did Dallen's friend and Als57 said it took two years to receive a rocket for which he had paid $700.00!!! I'd link it here but I just don't know how.
Ted

Oh, I was jumping to conclusions, sorry.

He doesn't get a pass, people are free to report their troubles with a business. The problems start when it becomes an online fist-fight. :eyepop:

I'm sorry that you did not receive the service you paid for and there was no resolution. These stories, the kind where customers are unhappy, can break a vendor, especially in the hyper-competitive style of Shop vs. Online.

This is the time when the brick and mortar shop is appreciated because you can literally lay hands on what you are about to buy. You know it's in stock, you don't have to worry about damage during shipping (unless you drop it).

I don't think that real physical stores will disappear, but I also don't know what the next 50 years will bring. There will doubtless be many changes and evolutions in the future.

One interesting side effect of online commerce is "virtual" reduction of potential customer base for traditional stores. The way it used to be, a town had to have "X" number of thousands of people before certain businesses and sizes of store could be supported. There was only so much market share for the grocery stores, drug stores, auto dealerships, hair salons, etc. Before online commerce, you could be pretty sure what your potential customer base was in any given town based on population and income and age statistics and the number of competing stores in your area.

You could also gauge about how far your potential customers would be willing to drive to get to your store. As driving got easier, customers were willing to drive farther to get things, thus the rise of the mini-mall and Wal-Mart.

In the present, merchandise retailers wanting to open a store can no longer go right to these population statistics to get a feel for whether a certain town or city can support them. Because of online competition you can now virtually "drive" anywhere instantly. This now makes the job of estimating your customer base via utilizing classical methods impossible and very difficult to do by any method with any accuracy at all. :shock:

In effect, what we might be seeing here are physical stores adhering to mainly traditional business models suddenly finding themselves in a population market that cannot sustain them given the additional "virtual" competition. With the online hobby operations, traditional shops that could previously exist within a certain population demographic or density suddenly find themselves competing against hundreds of online options. It would be equivalent to taking a large percentage of their population base away or vastly increasing their competition depending upon which side of the "equals" sign you wanted to stand on. Additionally, instant shipping takes away some of the incentive for customers to drive in their cars to go to a place in person.

So what does one do? What can the business owner control in that situation?

N

 

[Fred22]

I do both. My biggest problem with my local hobby shop is lousy selection and Ill order for you takes forever so i just do that myself. i have dealt with a number of online vendors but I like Red Arrow Hobbies the best right now. In Morinville Alberta I go to Brightside Hobbies and their service makes it worth stopping. I dont believe mail order is killing it up here. You just have options and this thread contains a lot of common sence precautions for dealing with online as well. Just my two kopeks fellas
Cheers
fred

 

[THier]

In the aforementioned thread Terryg did NOT receive the paid for products, neither did Dallen's friend and Als57 said it took two years to receive a rocket for which he had paid $700.00!!! I'd link it here but I just don't know how.
Why should this hit or miss vendor get a pass when Sheri was harried from pillar to post?
I requested extra packaging for my order from Ken when I made it. I OFFERED to pay EXTRA for double boxing but was assured that it would be well packed. When it arrived mashed and broken open I was cordial in my communication with him and AFTER i offered to split the cost of replacements he agreed to make it good. Later he suddenly changed his mind and refused to talk further.
Does he deserve a pass because he hasn't got the guts to respond?
Ted

For a moment I was going to ask if it were Performance HOBBIES or Performance ROCKETRY. Then I saw you mention Kens name. Oh well, I never had a problem with Ken, but waited forever for a kit from Curtis that I never got, and Ken worked some sort of deal with Curtis and made good to me, I got a bunch of stuff for another rocket. I live close enough, and see Ken pretty regularly, so maybe that's why I get treated ok. I know a few years ago Ken had some "issues" but I was taking a break from the hobby at the time.

I LOVE Performance Rocketry kits, but will NEVER pay for something in advance. I don't know if Curtis has gotten any better, but 5 years ago,,, well,,, you know

Tom

 

[les]

The largest hobby shop in our area was independently owned and was sold a few years ago. The original owner wanted to retire. They only carried Estes and sold them at 20% off retail. If you were buying for the scouts or school, he would give 40% off
The person that bought the store still only carries Estes, but no longer discounts - the prices are full retail! Also, the shop does not get the new kits (few that Estes actually comes out with and are not vaporware) for 3 ~ 6 months after their release.
Is it any wonder that I now make more use of on-line ordering? I still will go to the shop for supplies (like paint or CA), but rarely will I buy a kit from them anymore.
With the prices I can get from the web, plus the added variety (Semroc, Quest, Fliskits, Squirrel Works, Sirius, Apogee, Sunward, Starlight, Custom, Pemperton, Red Arrow, Hostile Projectiles, LOC, PML, Red River, Q Modeling, Launch Pad - to name a few - my apologies to anyone I missed), why stay with the brick and mortar?:confused2:

 

[MarkII]

Is it any wonder that I now make more use of on-line ordering? I still will go to the shop for supplies (like paint or CA), but rarely will I buy a kit from them anymore.
With the prices I can get from the web, plus the added variety (Semroc, Quest, Fliskits, Squirrel Works, Sirius, Apogee, Sunward, Starlight, Custom, Pemperton, Red Arrow, Hostile Projectiles, LOC, PML, Red River, Q Modeling, Launch Pad - to name a few - my apologies to anyone I missed), why stay with the brick and mortar?:confused2:

I don't think of my regional hobby shop as a rocketry shop, because it's not. I do think of it as a place where I can get small quantities of Estes motors right away, instead of in 3 weeks, and where I can get black powder D's and E's without paying Hazmat charges. I also think of it as the place to get a large variety of miscellaneous but essential hobby supplies, most of which are a bit of a pain to get any other way. (And to get some stuff that I didn't even know existed until I saw it there.) Occasionally I will also pick up something that is rocketry-specific (besides motors) but that is not what I go there for. When I want to get something that is very rocketry-specific, such as a particular kit or a set of decals, I will go online. I don't expect my hobby shop to stock such things, or to even understand what I am looking for. I don't mind that, because the shop is very helpful to me in other ways. It is an incredibly useful source to me for quite a few things. After I started my rocketry hobby back up a few years ago, I had a really tough time finding many of the things that I needed until I finally discovered that shop. It became my oasis in the desert.

MarkII

 

[Mikus]

The LHS I go to was mentioned earlier. It's in Houston on I-45S at El Dorado. They have a fairly good selection of Estes and LOC kits and parts, and I've found their prices to be pretty competetive, so when I need something I'll go there first to see if they have it in stock.

That's the 1st one north of JSC on I45, on the east side of the freeway?

Sounds like I'll have to check it out the next time I fly at JSC.

 

[als57]

In the aforementioned thread Terryg did NOT receive the paid for products, neither did Dallen's friend and Als57 said it took two years to receive a rocket for which he had paid $700.00!!! I'd link it here but I just don't know how.
Why should this hit or miss vendor get a pass when Sheri was harried from pillar to post?
I requested extra packaging for my order from Ken when I made it. I OFFERED to pay EXTRA for double boxing but was assured that it would be well packed. When it arrived mashed and broken open I was cordial in my communication with him and AFTER i offered to split the cost of replacements he agreed to make it good. Later he suddenly changed his mind and refused to talk further.
Does he deserve a pass because he hasn't got the guts to respond?
Ted

Since you mentioned my name I thought I'd interject a correction. My issue with a Performance Rocketry Nike Smoke kit was with Curtis at Performance Rocketry. Ken Allen of Performance Hobbies eventually got me the parts to complete the kit at no cost to me. Which he did not have to do ; since Curtis sold the kit.

I reguard Ken as a good guy and just recently ordered a kit and some parts from him.

Al

 

[Fred22]

You don't see many vendor companies run by women in this hobby. Ever wonder why?

MarkII

It is unfortunate but it seems to me there is a very small proportion of ladies in the hobby but I for one would welcome more. As a dealer honesty and good service are pretty much gender neutral when it comes to determining where to buy.
Cheers
fred

 

[accooper]

RangerStl

I think you are closer to what is real than anything I have read about this, although the rest of the posts are onto something also.

It all come down to this, I think.

Becareful who you order from. Communicate with fellow rocketeers. Both when you get lousy service, and especially when you get good service.

I don't know about the rest of y'all but I want companies who give great service to flourish, and grow, and make money. I would also like companies who don't give great service, or no service, or cheat people to die on the vine and go away.(I don't want the actual people who run it to die, just the company itself).

In the 30 od years of flying rockets I have only been cheated once, but I have had bad service many times. Some are still around, I don't know why, but most have disapeered.

Andrew From Texas

 

[AKPilot]

From my two cents, I think hobby stores are failing themselves. Here me out . . .

It's been brought up a number of times already that of a "hybrid" philosophy of having a brick-n-mortar store and then attending events. I say events because it doesn't have to be a launch, but could be an AMA event, etc.

First, it's my belief that LHS' are failing to evolve with the times. They're hanging on to an old business model.

Why can't a LHS have an brick-n-motar, on-line, and event presence simultaneously? Having a store is a 'passive' business; you rely on people walking in. Why not be proactive, show up at events, which also doubles as marketing. Make your business accessible using a variety of methods.

Second, LHS' need to do what use to happen and BUY their property - not rent. If you lease, you're subject to the property owners whims on raising rent.

Third, embrace the video gaming generation. Yes, I said embrace it. How many times do you walk into a LHS and see kids on the flight sims. Why not simply have a section of a store that relates to the HOBBY of video gaming? Yes, folks it's a hobby different than some of ours but, it's a reality. Instead of being standoffish to the video gamers, invite them in with their idea of products and show them another avenue. That or become a property owner, buy your LHS property and then become a property manager to a video game store, right next to yours.

Fourth, and this is the most delicate, conduct inventory control. Shelf inventory is by far the greatest expense. You don't know if will sell, but you also must have a product there ready to buy. Use, gasp, the Wal-mart method and track your inventory properly. If it doesn't move within a reasonable time then move it. Bring in things that people will buy. Why have a 727 plastic model jet on the shelf for ten years when there's no market? Why have an r/c model on the shelf if it doesn't move within a year or two? You're wasting time, space, and money.

LHS' need to quit shifting blame and realize that they need to evolve with the times, or continue down their current path.

:2:

 

[Peartree]

Some interesting points. As it relates to a hybrid model, let me tell you a short story about Mr. Lentine. I went to High School in the city of Akron, Ohio. I cannot begin to tell you about how many music stores are in a city that size but it has to be a bunch. Out of all those stores, Mr. Lentine (the proprietor of Lentine's Music) came to our band room each and every week (both Jr. High and High school) if you needed a repair, he'd take it with him and bring it back, he sold us mouthpieces, and valve oil and reeds and whatever we needed. If he didn't have it, he'd bring it back the following week and if we needed it for an upcoming concert he would often make a special trip to make sure we had it when we needed it it.

End result, where do you think we went when we needed something big, like a new instrument? Where do you think moms and dads went to supply younger brothers and sisters? I later found out that he had the same deal with every band, at every school across the city.

In an era when music stores were (and are) closing all across the county, Mr. Lentine (now retired) expanded. Last I heard they had at least three stores and several others in other cities are now using the same business model.

Stores CAN survive in changing times if they adapt and change.

 

[nxj]

For my LHS, one caters almost 100% to the RC car guys, and the other is pretty much all RC planes and train sets. I get my BP motors and the random Estes/Quest kit from them if they actually have something of value in stock. The rocket section is in the corner and not really tended too.

Other then that, i get my tools and other misc stuff from them. If i really needed some rocket stuff, i can go online or drive the 2 hours to Commonwealth (which is worth it imo).

On a side note, coming from paintball, this situation has been going on for years. It used to be you had to go to your local shop or field to get anything but with online stores and MAP pricing, its really killed the local shop guys. We need to keep buying from our local supplier or other wise, it will end up being only 2 or 3 online retailers to get anything from...

 

[AKPilot]

I will support my LHS, to a point however.

For example, my LHS (Mark Twain Hobbies) can get AT stuff. However, it's full retail. He also refuses to carry anything other than Estes, because of his distributor. In addition, I've talked to the owner directly on multiple occasions and have told him the Hobby Lobby 2 miles away will always undercut him on prices due to the 40% off coupons. He can't/won't shift his business model.

So I'll support him on mixing cups, balsa lengths, CA, a magazine here and there. But I wouldn't dream of paying full retail for a product than is self sufficient such as a rocket. On my r/c airplane stuff I may support him, if he's competitive in pricing, but nowadays the guys at the field actually offer better support and fixes than the store.

It's a paradox . . .

 

[BRC]

All I know my local guy, when he is open never has any stock and quite frankly not very helpful..I have ordered from www.rocketsbymelissa.com and they are very helpful and has always gone that extra mile for my business..So, I always check with them first for anything I may need..
Hey MARKII, look there is a womens name in the url, does that mean anything...??

 

[THier]

Since you mentioned my name I thought I'd interject a correction. My issue with a Performance Rocketry Nike Smoke kit was with Curtis at Performance Rocketry. Ken Allen of Performance Hobbies eventually got me the parts to complete the kit at no cost to me. Which he did not have to do ; since Curtis sold the kit.

I reguard Ken as a good guy and just recently ordered a kit and some parts from him.

Al

I wish Ken would have bought the molds for himself. I love the rockets, I had payed for a full scale AmRAAM, waited for ever, never got it, Curtis never even made the first, when I finally demanded my money back, Curtis said he didn't have it. Ken made some sort of a deal with Curtis, and supplied me with the stuff I needed for my Harpoon.

I just ordered a Smokin Rockets FS AMRAAM from Ken.

Tom

 

[RangerStl]

I'm glad these things are being cleared up. Illustrates the risks of partnering and offering products for sale that may not have been fully demonstrated. Hopefully the issues were all resolved to the customer's respective satisfaction.

So, after the discussions and observations listed here about what we perceive is happening to the brick & mortar shop, and the changing commerce environment, what do you all think are some ideas that could help your neighborhood shop survive?

Things I perceive that need to be changed:

Types of products offered for sale.

Modification of the classical distributor/retailer/customer relationship to prevent double mark-ups being paid by the end customer.

Fundamental changes in retail philosophy and advertising.

Re-discovery of the customer. Specifically, who and where are they in this day and age and how do you effectively engage them.

N

 

[GlennW]

My LHS is a small hole in the wall that's mainly a model train shop. About 85% of the place is N and HO scale trains, then he has a small plastic model section and finally, almost as an afterthought, a small section of estes rockets in the back. I mainly get motors from Wally world or Michaels when they have a coupon, but I will buy the motors from him that they don't carry, even though he is full retail.

What you say about changing the retail philosophy and rediscovery of the customer are the keys to success today. From what I can see this guy as well as most of these small hobby shop operators are not very proactive about their business. The ones that are will make it in the long run.

Glenn

 

[sunward]

....Modification of the classical distributor/retailer/customer relationship to prevent double mark-ups being paid by the end customer....

uhm, meaning?

 

[RangerStl]

Not to sound unfair or insensitive to those who are losing their livelihood, but I expect to see a kind of mass extinction in retail, actually.

What is the problem? Profits not supporting keeping a retail shop open and making a decent livelihood for the owner. The shop is run on classical principals, depending on people coming through the door and making purchases. Their advertising consists of Yellow Pages and newspaper maybe a magazine or 2.

OK, how do you increase profits? The two major methods I know right off are;

1. Increasing your margin on things you do sell or

2. Selling more at the same markup

Take #1. Not counting operations expenses like salary and maintenance which we assume for this example are trimmed to the bone, how do you increase your margin? There are, again, two ways that I know of.

A. Increase your selling price for merchandise or

B. Decrease your purchase cost for merchandise

In a world where B. is pretty hard to change given the distributor/retailer relationship and the fact that almost everything is made overseas by people making sub-poverty level wages, you are unfortunately left with A.

Increase prices.

Everybody knows this is necessary as inflation eats away at the buying power of our money, but raising prices too much for the sole purpose of increasing profits is tricky and likely to drive customers elsewhere.

OK, so we can't raise prices too much, the owner is living at the poverty level, and our costs are pretty much as low as we can hope to drive them... About 50 customers come into the shop per day and about 30 of those buy something. Those numbers are usually not enough to keep a store open.

Around Christmas is when my LHS makes the bulk of their yearly sales... probably more than half their total yearly income. So then let's say it's a mad house. There are 200 plus people in there any given day and they're buying stuff.

The Holiday season is what makes the year in retail and why a business is in serious trouble if they have even ONE bad holiday sales season. Their everyday margins are not high enough to keep the store open if there is no spike at the Holidays. If you run sales around the Holidays, you trim your margins even closer and are even more dependent upon large volumes of sales.

This is where the Internet can either eat your lunch or save your bacon, depending upon how you react.

(to be continued....)

N

 

[RangerStl]

uhm, meaning?

Well, we see this in the form of certain warehouse places offering "Distributor-level" prices to the public. It doesn't really work out to distributor pricing, but places that are their own distributorship (Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, Home Depot, Lowes) can afford to charge lower prices because they buy right from the manufacturer in a lot of cases.

So unless our local hobby store can go Wal-Mart and deal directly with manufacturers, the double-markup stays.

That's what I mean, sorry.

 

[RangerStl]

If you look at the article at the beginning of the thread, "Online Ordering Threatens Local Hobby Shop".

The typical sympathy reaction is to pity the business owner because the Internet is stealing their customers away and driving prices down to the point they can't compete.

OK, let's break this down a little. What happens when you are threatened in any other situation? You react, right? Whether you run away, throw a punch, call the cops, laugh... you react to a threat.

In the case of this article, they participated in an expose' I assume to call attention to the phenomenon of internet sales competing with classical retailers (duh :cyclops and putting up the link to their ONLINE RETAIL SITE.

Back to the previous example. If you pursue option 1. "Increase Your Margins" and that leaves you no choice but to do A. "Raise Prices" you are going to go out of business. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but you are going to fold. That is the reality of the situation.

So now we get around to #2 "Sell more at the same markup". What does that entail? For the classical shop you need more folks in the shop all year and lots more at Holiday time. How would you get more customers? Advertise in the right places. How many people would you get? Depends.

Hobbies are not as popular as they once were. Kids and now adults (the ones raised on Nintendo) are playing video games. So your customer base is naturally shrinking. Then you have the phenomenon I mentioned earlier of the internet bringing more competition for the hobby dollar into every town because folks can now buy from online retailers. So who exactly are you going to advertise to if your customer base is shrinking on 2 fronts?

You gonna take out more newspaper ads? TV ads? Magazine ads? These are important, but they are not going to make up the shortfall forever. How many people can you realistically expect to see in your shop each day?