### Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

#### Hospital_Rocket

##### Well-Known Member
I reviewed all the threads (I think) on BP ejection charges. So I won't bother to ask about substitution.

I cannot find the FFFF BP in Connecticut, and don't know anyone who owns a muzzle loader.

So

1) Does anybody know of a manufacturer of Preassembled BP charges for Rockets?

2) Would it be considered bad form to simply chop up a package of 18mm motors to get what I need?

3) Anybody have a cup or so they want to sell in the CT/E-NY/RI/W-Mass region?

#### Zippy

##### Well-Known Member
Have you considered mixing your own BP ? I do and it's not hard and doesn't require special equiptment other than a postal or diet scale for small amounts. 100 grams will last quite awhile in average sized HPR rockets. A ball mill is not needed if you have some patience and a few pennies. It's beyond the intended scope of TRF to post recipes or techniques for it here but they are very easy to find on the net.

EDIT: shockie beat me to the post, same concept though.

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
Due to having spent (mis-spent?) many of my more youthful years as an amateur chemist and wannabe pyromaniac, I can definitely tell you that home-made BP will NOT perform the same as store-boughten stuff.

At the BP factory, they have ways of safely grinding this stuff that you simply cannot match at home. We had all sorts of chem lab equipment at our disposal, and there is just no way to match what they can do at the factory. Their stuff is ground more finely, mixed more thoroughly, and functions much better.

If you are going to go ahead and substitute home-made, you will be better off to buy one of the other commercial 'near-FFFF' products like FF, nitrocellulose (available from rifle, pistol, and shotgun cartridges), and the rest.

My recommendation: make the effort to locate a supply of real BP and stick with it.

#### Zippy

##### Well-Known Member
home-made BP will NOT perform the same as store-boughten stuff
It doesn't have to. My stuff pops a HPR cone and chute out just fine. I wouldn't put it against factory made stuff if I were target shooting in a compitition rifle match but it goes "poof" real well.

Smokeless powders salvaged from pistol, rifle or shotgun shells may work but they may need to be confined longer for reliable ignition. Their are several differant smokeless powders and you'll never know wich one you've got if you salvaged it. They are more powerfull so a small mistake may blow a rocket to bits... Black Powder is much more forgiving.

#### Vance in AK

##### Well-Known Member
Al if at all possible I'd say go with the real stuff. It will probably only be $10.00-$14.00 per pound when you find it. Any large sporting goods shop should be able to point you in the right direction to find some. If not & you are in an experimenting mood, you could try "Pyrodex" powder. It is made by Hodgen as a plack powder replacement & the burning rates are quite similar.
The "Pyrodex "P"" is their pistol powder & will come the closest to FFFF.
As someone that has reloaded (conservitively) well over 15,000 rounds of smokeless(modern powders) ammo & has shot up an unreasonable amount of black powder, I can tell you there are huge differences between them, & between different powders in smokeless.
I could probably put 250 grains of fff black powder in any of my muzzleloaders & not damage them, but I would be scared to pull the trigger on 50 grains of some(really any) smokeless powders in the same gun.
I'm with powderburner. Find a supplier, spend $50.00 & have a lifetime supply. #### powderburner ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by Zippy My stuff . . goes "poof" real well. (I am going to completely ignore the immense potential here for any form of sarcasm.) Zippy, I really am glad that you have found a way to mix up an effective homemade BP. It has been my experience that homemade mixes (that follow the classic 75/15/10 formula) simply will not 'poof' and in fact will generally burn/melt into a combustible slag that burns relatively slowly. The only way that I ever found to achieve a consistent 'poof' was to significantly modify the formula and/or to substitute much more powerful fuels and oxidizers, which ain't BP anymore and heads you into a gray zone of homemade explosives (can you say 'Leavenworth'?) If you are willing to take the small loss in performance to use homemade BP versus factory stuff, my point is that I think most people will get better performance from other, more readily available, and certainly safer factory-made materials than they will get by trying to make their own BP. Vance adds another really good substitute idea (Pyrodex). It's just too easy to find an effective substitute compared to making your own. #### Zippy ##### Well-Known Member powderburner, I'll pass on the oppurtunity for sarcasm as well. Did you use a binder such as dextrin to turn your's it into lofting powder ? I granulated mine to about the size of cannon powder and it still goes poof, pop, bang or whatever you want to call it. I allready had the ingrediants from my experiments in black powder motor making and fireworks so it was readily available to me. Making your own may not be the best option for everyone but it is a viable alternative. I actually had the opposite problem concerning the burn with my motors, I couldn't get them to stop going poof. #### powderburner ##### Well-Known Member I really don't want to go much farther on this subject out here in an open post, even here on TRF with guys who have probably mostly already done this kind of stuff. I don't want to give someone the idea that this is easy stuff to fool around with, together with the knowledge of what/how to do. Zippy, email me sometime ([email protected]) or PM me here on TRF and we'll talk a little more? #### Zippy ##### Well-Known Member Sure thing. I wouldn't post anything here in TRF with any real detail anyway. If anyone really wants to know indepth stuff it isn't hard to find it out on the wild wild web. #### shockwaveriderz ##### Well-Known Member Isn't a LEUP required to purchase BP IF you are NOT using it for Antique Firearms? #### shockwaveriderz ##### Well-Known Member [ 2) Would it be considered bad form to simply chop up a package of 18mm motors to get what I need? I don't know about "bad form" but it appears it would be a violation of NFPA 1122 Code For Model Rocketry which states: 4.19.2 No person shall dismantle, reload, or alter a single-use model rocket motor. I think "chop up" qualifies here as dismantling the motor....... #### Rocketjunkie ##### Addicted to APCP Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket I reviewed all the threads (I think) on BP ejection charges. So I won't bother to ask about substitution. I cannot find the FFFF BP in Connecticut, and don't know anyone who owns a muzzle loader. You can get it here. 5 lb. under$100 including Hazmat shipping.
https://www.powderinc.com/order.htm#goex

#### Hospital_Rocket

##### Well-Known Member
4.19.2 No person shall dismantle, reload, or alter a single-use model rocket motor
Well I guess violating the NFPA, Model Rocketry Code, and possibly the law would be considered bad form....

This is what we call grasping for razor blades.

One other contributor found a workable source for ffff although I have no idea what I will do with 5 pounds.

I think I am going to look into one of those CO2 ejection systems for my L2.

#### Lee Reep

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
I reviewed all the threads (I think) on BP ejection charges. So I won't bother to ask about substitution.

I cannot find the FFFF BP in Connecticut, and don't know anyone who owns a muzzle loader.

How about FFFG? I haven't bought any BP lately, but that was pretty common a few years back. Or, buy even coarser grade, and CAREFULLY grind it finer with mortar and pestle.