On price increases re. minimum wage increase

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I had a security clearance 35 years ago, so I know a little something’ about some stuff.

 

[DES]

I remember taking a class on Communism back in college. The instructor was a true believer, lived in a local commune, etc. He loved to tell the students that the Soviets gave up on Communism just a year or two early. If they could have held out a bit longer, computer and AI technology would have been good enough to actually have a functional, but completely planned, economy. I guess we'll never find out...

Also, we've been trying to hire engineers here for almost a year, with VERY little success. I blame it on the fact that we are 100% back in the office. People would rather work from home.
/QUOTE]

The Soviet Union failed due a number of reasons, but graft and corruption played a big role. "Entrepreneurs" will always figure out a way to game the system for their own benefit, at the expense of others. It doesn't matter how well you plan the economy if the people doing the planning are lining their own pockets. Throw in significant disincentives to rock the boat, or to stick your neck out with a good idea, and the system is going to fail sooner or later. AI would not fix central planning. One premise of Communism is that everyone is actually agreeing to share equally; that simply is never going to happen. There will always be an entrepreneur figuring out how to get a little or a lot more for himself at the expense of the proletariat.

Soviet Union would have lasted longer if they had focused more on feeding their people, providing a higher quality of life, and shot a few more oligarchs.

Bear in mind, there is plenty of graft, corruption, and featherbedding in our own country. Don't like a law? Buy a senator - and it turns out you don't even have to buy your own senator, you can shop around for a cheap one.

 

[DES]

There are some basic Laws of Economics that are without dispute.
1. Government actions results in a misallocation of capital. Always.
2. Price will naturally reach a level that balances supply and demand.
3. Monetation of debt transfers wealth from the lower economic classes to the upper economic classes.

#2 Is a fallacy that assumes a perfectly free market and elastic demands. In reality, the cost of many necessities, pharmaceuticals for example, are dictated by the producers, with very little control by the consumer. You can boycott fast food pretty easily if the price is too high, gasoline is harder to do without, but if you need it, you'll pay whatever they ask for insulin. The less elastic the demand, the less the market controls the price.

This is partially due to the interference of #1, but I maintain that the entrepreneur will always figure out a way to control the supply to their advantage, so that they can set the price.

The free market is only a convenient concept, it has never existed in reality.

 

[Ez2cDave]

College should be free for anyone who wants to better themselves and society. Yes, that includes the humanities/liberal arts. There is a societal benefit provided when our youth are educated in so called economically unviable fields of study.

Remember this . . . Nothing is "free" . . . Somebody, somewhere, is going to have to pay those expenses . . . Everything costs money and there are no "free rides" !

Dave F.

 

[PeterK]

Never have been able to understand the work from home concept. I have never had a job where that is possible. Come to think about it I can’t think of a single person I know that could. Be it medical, manufacturing, technical support, facilities engineering, construction, maintenance. It is just interesting to me that jobs exist where people don’t do anything physical.

 

[KenECoyote]

Never have been able to understand the work from home concept. I have never had a job where that is possible. Come to think about it I can’t think of a single person I know that could. Be it medical, manufacturing, technical support, facilities engineering, construction, maintenance. It is just interesting to me that jobs exist where people don’t do anything physical.

I've worked from home for over a decade...the work I do is almost entirely on a computer using different software to compile and analyze data. Same for my wife, but I think even longer (she does Powerpoint presentation work).

 

[Funkworks]

Never have been able to understand the work from home concept. I have never had a job where that is possible. Come to think about it I can’t think of a single person I know that could. Be it medical, manufacturing, technical support, facilities engineering, construction, maintenance. It is just interesting to me that jobs exist where people don’t do anything physical.

Accounting, programming and writing to name a few. Even teaching if necessary. And this already covers millions of people.

 

[PeterK]

Oh I know these type jobs exist. It is just that nobody I know has “office” jobs. Of course these type jobs are fewer in smaller towns like in my area.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Never have been able to understand the work from home concept. I have never had a job where that is possible. Come to think about it I can’t think of a single person I know that could. Be it medical, manufacturing, technical support, facilities engineering, construction, maintenance. It is just interesting to me that jobs exist where people don’t do anything physical.

"Work at home" refers to jobs where no one needs to be physically present or perform any physical labor tasks ( Answering phones, Computer-related jobs, Sales, Tech Support, Telemarketing, Upper Management, etc, etc, etc ) . . .

But, of course, there must be people who do the actual physical, daily tasks . . . The people who REALLY keep the Country going !

Dave F.

 

[dr wogz]

Engineering / mechanical design. Been doing it at home for the past two years..

Started drafting at home, with a drafting board in my room..

But with today's technology, I log into my work computer, and have a few 'on line / face-to-face' meetings a day, some of which I share my screen to go over the design or issue I / we have.. Might be just one person, or might be a group of 15 or more..

10 years ago? less likely for the 'logging into' or online meetings, but still had teh chance to get data 'from teh office' and make 'conference calls' with others.

20 years ago? much less likely, would likely have been in the office for most of the time, in some 'plastic bubble' erected around my desk.. Maybe some work could be brought home..

30 years ago? Work at the office till you fell over, sick.. (or work at home, nut with some major infrastructure in place & likely daily trips into the office to get work & drop off work..)

 

[fyrwrxz]

Always wanted to be an 18th century Belgian Flute Music major, but no...I had to go into Aerospace. Seems the one guy with the Flute music company wanted to pay minimum wage. The one observation I have to offer is the Cost of health insurance vs. the worth of the staff member. This cost is hard-wired into my budget each year and it keeps going up. It's not hard to visualize this becoming a primary driver of minimum wage until we all wind up supporting the private companies offering said health care. The market can only handle so much graft and it becomes untenable to match global competition. I offer no solutions, but feel bad for the staff I manage that have to work two or three jobs to cover expenses. I was lucky to land a great job after I 'retired' the first time, but I certainly couldn't work two jobs at 70 to make ends meet. No doubt if my wife were to enter the work force now, the costs of transportation, taxes, etc would wind up as a zero sum game at minimum wage scales. While my children are successful in their endeavours, I cringe at what the economic world will look like for my grandchildren. I can't even begin to analyze the situations facing us today (even minus the pandemic) to thread the needle for possible solutions.
I'm so depressed about this, I'll just go build a rocket...

 

[prfesser]

Never have been able to understand the work from home concept. I have never had a job where that is possible. Come to think about it I can’t think of a single person I know that could. Be it medical, manufacturing, technical support, facilities engineering, construction, maintenance. It is just interesting to me that jobs exist where people don’t do anything physical.

With today's technology, one can certainly teach from home...but I am SOOOOOO glad that I retired from it just before the pandemic hit. It's simply more effective in person IMHO.

Best -- Terry

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

"Work at home" refers to jobs where no one needs to be physically present or perform any physical labor tasks ( Answering phones, Computer-related jobs, Sales, Tech Support, Telemarketing, Upper Management, etc, etc, etc ) . . .

But, of course, there must be people who do the actual physical, daily tasks . . . The people who REALLY keep the Country going !

Dave F.

One of my jobs (I have 3 at 66 years of age) is working at home. Of course, home on the range is a 1000 acre ranch fixing fence, pulling calves, feeding a goat dairy herd and a hundred head of cattle, tilling, planting, and cutting hay, and cost accounting for that activity. My other two jobs are processing and shipping AP (anybody need any?) at a facility still on the ranch but a mile away from the house, and installing solar arrays and solar water wells for clients.
One thing for sure, I don’t get bored. Tho I kinda miss my overseas work, but my wife shredded my passport…..I think it was sort of a vague hint…..

Pat G

 

[MJW]

Remember this . . . Nothing is "free" . . . Somebody, somewhere, is going to have to pay those expenses . . . Everything costs money and there are no "free rides" !

Dave F.

It's embarrassing that a explanation is required but here we are. ”Free" as in provided without direct cost to students. This is what is generally meant when folks say K-12 education is free. Obviously people are taxed to pay for their neighbors' kids education. As a society it's been agreed that the benefit to the community is worth the cost taxed to the community. Why there is still debate as to the cost/benefit ratio of undergraduate and graduate education is quite beyond me. Personally speaking, my income increased 10 fold and my tax burden increased infinitely with a college education. If only a few percent more people can experience the same who couldn't otherwise afford to go to college, it pays for itself. The community experiences the benefit when more people are spending much more money and actually paying taxes instead of getting 100+% refunds after credits. Hence the community should pay the cost just like K-12. Paying college students based on their grades should also be done, but let's just start with free tuition.

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

It's embarrassing that a explanation is required but here we are. ”Free" as in provided without direct cost to students. This is what is generally meant when folks say K-12 education is free. Obviously people are taxed to pay for their neighbors' kids education. As a society it's been agreed that the benefit to the community is worth the cost taxed to the community. Why there is still debate as to the cost/benefit ratio of undergraduate and graduate education is quite beyond me. Personally speaking, my income increased 10 fold and my tax burden increased infinitely with a college education. If only a few percent more people can experience the same who couldn't otherwise afford to go to college, it pays for itself. The community experiences the benefit when more people are spending much more money and actually paying taxes instead of getting 100+% refunds after credits. Hence the community should pay the cost just like K-12. Paying college students based on their grades should also be done, but let's just start with free tuition.

I think that is great! Your taxes went to infinity? Bravo!
The US of A can use that money, because public education costs have gone through the roof.
Here is a report. ( In case reading an excel chart was not part of your education, the increase in K12 education costs has increased almost 700 percent!
https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/history/index.html
And such a fine ROI. (Yep, I am a business man, have created and managed several companies with hundreds of employees and created jobs most politicians have not a clue how that works. ) ROI is Return On Investment.

Here is a link to a flat line. That 700 percent increase in K 12 education bought us this.


http://educationbythenumbers.org/co...ved-for-40-years-top-students-stagnating_251/
Now, given that, and please allow me the same suppositions you proposed, which was most everything, higher education works IMO for those who EARN it. IE, yourself, Indians, Paks, people who WANT a better life while not depending on a lively hood in Bulgarian flute mastery, as long as they stay in the community that brought them to the dance! Educating AND Paying Indians, Paks, etc, and then they leave to develop weapons systems for countries that want to blow us away is NOT an ROI! (Sorry, that last statement is not always the case, but I have seen it happen! (Launch Director, International CANSAT competitions, 14 years).
And as a business man, I look at the average product of college graduates, who can’t spell, communicate, keep a schedule, or complete a sentence with someone out of their hovitas dialect (duck duck go indiana jones for a gibberish translation). I would much rather hire a tech school graduate who worked, earned, and thusly paid for the knowledge. Socialism does not work ie!
And lastly, please allow me this observation. I have been involved in academia at the high school and college level (plus law enforcement but that is another topic) for 3 and a half decades.
I have yet to get anyone involved in those disciplines to recommend a similar career path for their children.

Hmmm.

Pat G

 

[MJW]

I think that is great! Your taxes went to infinity? Bravo!
The US of A can use that money, because public education costs have gone through the roof.
Here is a report. ( In case reading an excel chart was not part of your education, the increase in K12 education costs has increased almost 700 percent!
https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/history/index.html
And such a fine ROI. (Yep, I am a business man, have created and managed several companies with hundreds of employees and created jobs most politicians have not a clue how that works. ) ROI is Return On Investment.

Here is a link to a flat line. That 700 percent increase in K 12 education bought us this.


http://educationbythenumbers.org/co...ved-for-40-years-top-students-stagnating_251/
Now, given that, and please allow me the same suppositions you proposed, which was most everything, higher education works IMO for those who EARN it. IE, yourself, Indians, Paks, people who WANT a better life while not depending on a lively hood in Bulgarian flute mastery, as long as they stay in the community that brought them to the dance! Educating AND Paying Indians, Paks, etc, and then they leave to develop weapons systems for countries that want to blow us away is NOT an ROI! (Sorry, that last statement is not always the case, but I have seen it happen! (Launch Director, International CANSAT competitions, 14 years).
And as a business man, I look at the average product of college graduates, who can’t spell, communicate, keep a schedule, or complete a sentence with someone out of their hovitas dialect (duck duck go indiana jones for a gibberish translation). I would much rather hire a tech school graduate who worked, earned, and thusly paid for the knowledge. Socialism does not work ie!
And lastly, please allow me this observation. I have been involved in academia at the high school and college level (plus law enforcement but that is another topic) for 3 and a half decades.
I have yet to get anyone involved in those disciplines to recommend a similar career path for their children.

Hmmm.

Pat G

You seem like a very important person and probably have actually earned the condescending tone you've used so freely. The overt racist references to foreign workers/students though are just plain foolish sounding.

 

[Ez2cDave]

It's embarrassing that a explanation is required but here we are. ”Free" as in provided without direct cost to students. This is what is generally meant when folks say K-12 education is free. Obviously people are taxed to pay for their neighbors' kids education. As a society it's been agreed that the benefit to the community is worth the cost taxed to the community. Why there is still debate as to the cost/benefit ratio of undergraduate and graduate education is quite beyond me. Personally speaking, my income increased 10 fold and my tax burden increased infinitely with a college education. If only a few percent more people can experience the same who couldn't otherwise afford to go to college, it pays for itself. The community experiences the benefit when more people are spending much more money and actually paying taxes instead of getting 100+% refunds after credits. Hence the community should pay the cost just like K-12. Paying college students based on their grades should also be done, but let's just start with free tuition.

K-12 education is required by law, college is not. At that point ( after 12th grade ), those young people are adults and responsible for themselves. During K-12 ( some H.S. students are over 18 ), they were Minors. You previously mentioned rewarding Students ("paying") for their grades . . . That is already being done ( Scholarships ) and those who do not "measure up" do not get those rewards.

Why should I, or anyone else, have to pay for every adult to go to college, free of charge, regardless of their level of ability ? Those without the ability will not graduate, unless the standards are greatly lowered. What, then, is the benefit of a "college degree", at all, if everyone gets one, just for showing up? Everyone does not "get a trophy" and there are "winners" & "losers", in Life.

The next logical step is for post-graduate degrees to supersede minimal "college degrees", in the everyday job market, thus making a Bachelor's Degree the new "high-school diploma". I suppose you want Graduate School to be free, too ? What about Medical School or Law School ? How would you like to be treated by a Doctor who "passed" with a D grade average, in a system where "40" is a passing grade?

At some point, people ( of all races and both sexes ) must acknowledge their limitations and accept their place in society. You can't just give everyone everything, free of charge, and expect it all to "even out". Everything has "consequences" that can't be ignored or "swept under the carpet". Social status is a "tiered system" where no one is "equal", in reality.

Dave F.

 

[RICHARD COLARCO]

I teach undergraduate and graduate math courses from home.

I retired from being a program manager in the aerospace industry, where I seldom went to the office.

 

[jderimig]

Can we please stop with "these programs pay for themselves" crap. The data is in on that.

 

[boatgeek]

Can we please stop with "these programs pay for themselves" crap. The data is in on that.

Provided we also stop with the "these tax cuts will pay for themselves with increased economic activity" crap as well. That's also been conclusively proven wrong.

 

[Banzai88]

Provided we also stop with the "these tax cuts will pay for themselves with increased economic activity" crap as well. That's also been conclusively proven wrong.

Sure, as long as we're all willing to give up the fantasy that spending $3.5T of newly printed money and foreign financed debt on 'infrastructure' (that isn't really infrastructure) won't cost any jobs and will be economically neutral in terms of cost.

I don't think that 10,000 Pinocchios is enough for that one. Even the economic left was forced to label that claim economically illiterate.

 

[jderimig]

Provided we also stop with the "these tax cuts will pay for themselves with increased economic activity" crap as well. That's also been conclusively proven wrong.

Federal revenue NEVER dropped after a tax cut. Even the last one.

But federal spending ALWAYS rose after a spending bill was passed.

 

[afadeev]

Never have been able to understand the work from home concept. I have never had a job where that is possible. Come to think about it I can’t think of a single person I know that could. Be it medical, manufacturing, technical support, facilities engineering, construction, maintenance. It is just interesting to me that jobs exist where people don’t do anything physical.

Look at it this way - at my current job, my team is spread out across four (4) states and seven (7) physical locations. Even before Covid, I had to travel to meet folks in person.
I did casually run into a lot more people at work, and do miss those surreptitious communication flows. But 1.5 years into the pandemic, we are working form home (WFH) with minimal negative side effects.

At my prior job, we had three (3) teams handing off work to each other, to keep things going 24/7, globally. Handover was routine, and was motivated by the time-zone coverage convenience. Work could have been done from anywhere, assuming equally skilled, competent, and motivated individuals on the payroll. We all went to the same office in the US mostly to socialize, cross-check each other's thinking, and to simplify management obligations of everyone involved.

I was filling two positions earlier this year, and had to pick a few formal "work locations" to be listed with the postings. That was mildly absurd, since WFH wasn't an available option. During interviews, folks asked what those locations represented, and I had to tell them "it's a location where you will NOT be going to work any time soon".

With today's technology, one can certainly teach from home...but I am SOOOOOO glad that I retired from it just before the pandemic hit. It's simply more effective in person IMHO.

True 'dat, from students' perspective.
From Prof's perspective, teaching remotely is WAAYYYYY easier, and saves commute time. Attending faculty meetings is way less irritating as well. Or so says my better half.

Can we please stop with "these programs pay for themselves" crap. The data is in on that.

What data?
If you have it - reference it!
If you don't, please spare us the insinuations.

TIA,
a

 

[jderimig]

Data-> usdebtclock.org

We need more gov programs to slow down that clock.

 

[boomtube-mk2]

[NM]

 

[speed]

It's embarrassing that a explanation is required but here we are. ”Free" as in provided without direct cost to students. This is what is generally meant when folks say K-12 education is free. Obviously people are taxed to pay for their neighbors' kids education. As a society it's been agreed that the benefit to the community is worth the cost taxed to the community. Why there is still debate as to the cost/benefit ratio of undergraduate and graduate education is quite beyond me. Personally speaking, my income increased 10 fold and my tax burden increased infinitely with a college education. If only a few percent more people can experience the same who couldn't otherwise afford to go to college, it pays for itself. The community experiences the benefit when more people are spending much more money and actually paying taxes instead of getting 100+% refunds after credits. Hence the community should pay the cost just like K-12. Paying college students based on their grades should also be done, but let's just start with free tuition.

Some, are just not college material, yet they still want to try. The drop out rate here in California is remarkably high about 70%. That money seems to have been wasted.

 

[speed]

Data-> usdebtclock.org

We need more gov programs to slow down that clock.

I hate that site....scares the crap out of me every time i see the debt numbers scrolling by so fast!

 

[boomtube-mk2]

The "Debt Clock" is going up, the "Doomsday Clock" is winding down.

This is not a good trend people!

 

[MJW]

Some, are just not college material, yet they still want to try. The drop out rate here in California is remarkably high about 70%. That money seems to have been wasted.

How many of those drop outs did so due to financial aid issues or because they had to work full time while attending college and caring for family? Also, I don't see a partial education as a waste.

 

[speed]

How many of those drop outs did so due to financial aid issues or because they had to work full time while attending college and caring for family? Also, I don't see a partial education as a waste.

Hardly any. They found that college, even community colleges were just to difficult for them. My son is one of them. He now owns a machine shop. 70% is a lot of money, hundreds of millions or even billions lost that could have been better spent. But colleges want more students because they get more money, even if they know for a fact that the student isn't college material, they still want them to enroll so they can claim higher student enrolment rates. They don't like to mention the drop out rate, yet it's there in black and white! What could they do with that partial education? Most drop out in the first or second semesters, so that education is, for the most part, going over the basics that they should have learned in high school. Money wasted...