Old problem solved; New problems emerge

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dugliss

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Leviathan at 60 Acres 03-24-13.jpgSemroc Ranger at 60 Acres 03-9-13.jpgSLS Javelin at 60 Acres 03-9-13 (1).jpgToday's launches were both highly successful and terribly depressing. In fact, I'm hoping for some input from some of the members that have had experience with Aerotech RMS.
I'll start with the high points of the day first. I launched my Leviathan on it's maiden flight today. In a word: WOW! The flight went off without a hitch on an Estes SU F50-6T.:grin: I used a Sonic Igniter and an Estes E launch controller with all of it's 6 volts. I then set up for a 2nd launch, this time on a RMS F22-7J in my new 29/40-120 case. For this I switched to a 12v controller; a Pratt Hobby Go Box hooked up to an Eveready 12v 926 lantern battery. The controller indicated continuity, but nothing happened when I hit the button. I troubleshooted for shorts, and inspected the copperhead igniter - the nichrome wasn't burned at all - and reinserted it, but still no launch. The lead was taped correctly and there was continuity, so I suspect that the copperhead was faulty. Unfortunately, I didn't have another one with me so I scuttled that launch and brought the loaded case home. I have noted past rants about these igniters from other members.
Next up was my Semroc Ranger on 3 B6-4s. This rocket launched fine using standard Estes igniters last summer at a club launch with their beefy launch system. I went to a 12v system so I could launch it on my own, but last time when I set it up to launch, the engines would not light. Could find no obvious short, but it was a no go. When I got home I pulled the igniters out - all connected in parallel - and connected the controller. All three of them burned well. I don't know why they didn't when inserted in the motors. Anyway, today I tried again using Quest Q2G2 igniters since they are low resistance, and all 3 motors lit. Great launch and recovery!:grin:
Next was my SLS Javelin on an RMS E187W. Two weeks ago This rocket launched beautifully on this reload, but the engine hook failed and I lost the 24/40 case when it kicked out. I recovered the rocket and last week I retrofitted it with an Aeropack threaded style retainer - good advice from another TRF member. This time though the launch was a disaster, and I'm not even sure what happened because the rocket was lost.:sad: Here's what I observed: The motor ignited normally. The controller wire alligator clips didn't disconnect from the copperhead ignitor and the rocket pulled the wiring along with it which caused an unstable launch. The rocket quickly picked up speed and became stable, but it's angle of attack was not even 45 degrees, more like about 30. With all the smoke from the White lightning propellant, I lost sight of the rocket and couldn't track it. Some other people on the field tried to track it, but I got conflicting reports on where the rocket may have ended up. I heard no ejection charge fire, and I think the Javelin likely pranged ballistic into the ground or the thick brush to the south east of the field. I looked for it for a long time thinking parts of it might be salvageable like the motor case and the engine retainer, but no luck.:mad: Since I don't have the rocket to inspect, I have to theorize. Could the red cap which holds the igniter in place not have blown off with the engine exhaust; maybe just burned through, and the igniter stayed in place pulling the wiring harness along with the rocket? It pulled the plug right out of the launch controller. I'm new to RMS and am not familiar with common and not so common problems with reloads. If this is what happened, this makes me nervous about using the red caps to hold the igniters in place. They do fit very tightly. Maybe the Estes method of using plain old masking tape would be safer. In any case RIP SLS Javelin. That rocket will be missed.:sigh:
 
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copperheads can be a little tricky if you're not using AT's copperhead clip, if you were using standard launch clips then you need to insulate one side/jaw other wise all that happens is a short circuit. at a guess I'd say your analysis of the javelin is correct. I make it a point to only press the nozzle cap on just far enough to hold the ignitor in position (maybe an 1/8"). if you go with tape, do not over do it. tape can cause the same problem of not letting go as the red cap.
rex
 
One thing I have always done is fasten the wiring to the launcher, either with tape or some sort of clip. I've never had a rocket try to take the launcher along :)
 
One thing I have always done is fasten the wiring to the launcher, either with tape or some sort of clip. I've never had a rocket try to take the launcher along :)

Yup - ignition leads should never be so long that they can still be connected to the rocket beyond the length of your rod or rail. Trust me, I've learned the hard way as well - me Executioner has paid the price.
 
One hing I've heard about olks doing is to slit the red cap top to bottom on the side opposite the venting cut. It still holds the igniter in place but comes off more easily when the motor ignites, or Urc is my understanding. I haven't tried it personally due to a lack of RMS hardware.
 
You used an eveready "heavy duty" battery which is not heavy duty (just like "world's finest chocolate" is not the world's finest chocolate).

It is not an alkaline battery and it cannot deliver the amperage needed to fire most Copperheads (you might find a more sensitive one that can fire if the battery is nice and warm and can deliver slightly more current).

And Copperheads do not have "nichrome", they have two copper strips glued together with an insulating glue and at the tip is a conductive pyrogen that allows the electricity to flow from one side to the other and if there is enough current it will heat up and start to burn (very hot) which will then start the motor.

As for the clips not detaching, do not use "Alligator clips" EVER! Only use smooth jawed micro clips. Alligator clips have teeth that grab the igniter and do not let go and they can also bite right through a Copperhead and cause a short.

Also, the red cap should have a vent hole but it should also just barely be on the nozzle so that it can blow off once the motor actually ignites. Using macking tape will also work instead of the red cap, but too much masking tape will also hold the igniter to the side of the nozzle. That is not a problem as long as the smooth jawed micro clips can slip off the igniter. Alligator clips with teeth = disaster (potential for crashes, fires, lawsuits).
 
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Hey! Hey! Hey! You have a problem with World's Finest Chocolate? That's a company/brand name that generates a lot of money for non-profits. You really don't want to go messing around with the South Side of Chicago.

You used an eveready "heavy duty" battery which is not heavy duty (just like "world's finest chocolate" is not the world's finest chocolate).
 
Sorry for your problems, but I'll offer a little friendly advice...

Fred's absolutely right about the battery issue... "heavy duty" misnomer notwithstanding, a lantern battery, 12 volt or not, simply has too high an internal resistance to deliver the kind of CURRENT you need to reliably fire MPR ignitors... they simply cannot deliver enough current, that is, the "C rating" of the battery, as it's known in RC electric motor circles (planes, cars, helis). Alkaline and dry-cell type batteries simply aren't made for dumping large amounts of current quickly... rechargeables, on the other hand, usually have better C-ratings and can deliver much more current much faster and do it repeatedly, unlike alkalines or dry-cells. I can't recall ATM which is better, ni-cads or nickel-metal-hydrides... then there's lipoly's, (lithium polymers) but they're not really advisable in model rocket controllers-- they can VERY EASILY be OVER-discharged, which can RUIN a lipoly (discharging it below 4 volts IIRC will ruin them).

Lead-acid batteries like lawn mower batteries, motorcycle batteries, or car-jumper battery packs with gel-cell lead-acid batteries have EXCELLENT C-ratings and high storage capacities for their size... you can launch anything off those all day and never miss a beat, and still boost your car off at the end of the day if you forgot your trunk light was on and it killed your car battery while you were flying... I use a car jumper battery pack, and IMHO you cannot get a finer launch power supply than that.

Team that up with your Go-box, and you should be set to launch about 95% of the stuff you're likely to launch in the foreseeable future (unless you start clustering dozens of black powder motors or something, then you'll eventually need a relay system or something like that).

Good luck and hope this helps! OL JR :)
 
Is there a Batteries + retail outlet in your area? They carry an enormous range of rechargeable batteries, many in sizes smaller than lantern batteries. There really is no reason to skimp on this aspect of the hobby, but you won't spend an arm and a leg either.
 
This is where I express my gratitude to Rex, Fred, JR and everyone else that chimed in with valuable information. These are some refinements now to my procedure regarding MPR and reloads:
1. Install the nozzle cap no more than 1/8 from the end of the nozzle. See photo.
2. Get rid of the alligator clips and use smooth jaw clips.
3. Wrap the controller wires around the launchpad legs.
4. replace the lantern battery with a car-jumper battery that will supply sufficient current to fire copperheads. I may get the copperhead clip.

If the weather is good, I may be out to the field this weekend.
And a special message for Marc: Glad you like the Ranger. I saw the photos of yours some months ago when you made your own decals. I built mine a year ago and I bought the Ranger decal set from Excelsior, but I messed up on the big striped wrap around decal. Couldn't get it positioned just right and it tore. I masked and painted the stripes, but I did use the other decals as you see in the photo. This was a neat precursor to the Bertha.
IMG-20130326-00007.jpgSeattle-20130326-00008.jpg
 
I'm going to differ a little bit on the nozzle cap. It doesn't matter how far you put it on. Trust me, that little red plastic cap doesn't have a chance when exposed to 1800+ degree jet exhaust. I've flown a few hundred and have actually recovered them with the red cap still around the nozzle -but the end was melted completely.
LiPo batteries will work - if they are rated & sized correctly, my club uses them and only has to recharge once a year! I don't know enough about them to tell you what to get, but I can tell you that they are expensive to replace. My personal GSE includes a car jump pack because they are only 40 bucks at the local mart.

Good luck & post pictures.

rick
 
LiPo batteries are nice...if you have them on hand, a quick check of tower hobbies has 4s (14.8v) 5000mah 30c (rated 14.5v @ 150amps) for only $80 + charger $125...that's one reason I decided to drop out of rc boat racing. Nimh battery packs do require frequent charging (say the night before a launch) but are much cheaper. the car jump pack may be cheaper yet, but they are somewhat bulkier than either LiPo or Nickel chemistry batteries, otoh they have a built in charger. with all types of batteries you have to follow the manufactures recommended maintance instructions for best life/performance. for the average rocketeer I would suggest the jump pack (unless you already have batteries and chargers from rc just collecting dust. Ni-cad batteries are fast becoming dinosaurs due to ecco concerns.
rex
 
Tower Hobbies is one of the worst places to get LiPo packs due to their prices. All those name brand packs are for the most part made in the same factories as the cheap packs you find at other retailers. Like so much in retail you pay a lot for the name. Yes, Harley, I'm looking straight at you!
 
This is where I express my gratitude to Rex, Fred, JR and everyone else that chimed in with valuable information. These are some refinements now to my procedure regarding MPR and reloads:
1. Install the nozzle cap no more than 1/8 from the end of the nozzle. See photo.
2. Get rid of the alligator clips and use smooth jaw clips.
3. Wrap the controller wires around the launchpad legs.
4. replace the lantern battery with a car-jumper battery that will supply sufficient current to fire copperheads. I may get the copperhead clip.

If the weather is good, I may be out to the field this weekend.
And a special message for Marc: Glad you like the Ranger. I saw the photos of yours some months ago when you made your own decals. I built mine a year ago and I bought the Ranger decal set from Excelsior, but I messed up on the big striped wrap around decal. Couldn't get it positioned just right and it tore. I masked and painted the stripes, but I did use the other decals as you see in the photo. This was a neat precursor to the Bertha.
View attachment 123402View attachment 123403

You're welcome... glad to help where I can...

Sounds like you're on the right track with those ideas...

Later! OL JR :)

PS... @ li-poly afficianados... yeah, they work-- never said they didn't... but then IMHO the question becomes WHY?? I guess it comes down to personal preference... lipolys will work and they might even last IF YOU MAINTAIN THEM AND CHARGE THEM PROPERLY... OTOH, lead-acid or gel-cell batteries will do the job just as well, and be a lot less expensive and longer lasting in most cases, and a lot more forgiving on the overuse/undercharging issue as well...

Guess it comes down to the difference between a Ford and a Ferrari... both will get you to the same places, but one will cost you a lot more for the same end result...
 
Here's a progress update: After making some changes, I went out to the field yesterday and today. I picked up a lead acid car jumper battery at Walmart Thursday night. I found one that is light enough to walk out to the launch site from the parking lot, and it was under $40. I also stopped over at Radio Shack and bought some smooth jaw clips. A package of 10 for $2.99.
Saturday was clear and sunny, but it quickly became too windy to launch. My test launch of my Crossfire ISX went well, but after prepping the Leviathan, I decided that it would be too risky and for the second time, scrubbed the launch. The first time, I couldn't get it off the pad because of the insufficient battery I was using.
Today, I tried again. This time, I got out to the field earlier in the morning, and conditions were near perfect. After a successful test launch with my very tough Estes Alpha, I set up the Leviathan with the F22-7J reload that I tried to light last weekend. Same copperhead, too. This time, no problems; after a chuff or two the rocket launched normally and was recovered, although the delay was a little too long. I set up to launch again, this time on an Estes(Aerotech) G40-7W. This launch was spectacular and this time the delay was about right. First G engine launch for me, and I really like the loud roar the White Lightning propellant produces. I capped the launch day with my Estes Air Commander on a C11/D12, and this was a nice high flight as well.
All rockets recovered without damage and a satisfying day, for me.:D I wanted to get some lift off pics, but I was slow on the shutter and all I got was smoke plumes and empty launch pads. The Blackberry camera is not too good for this. I need a good camera like Fishhead's, I guess. Maybe someday.
I want to get another mid power rocket to replace the lost Javelin, so I'm putting in an order for another Semroc SLS series rocket; An Aero Dart. The Javelin flew very well on E18-7Ws. This rocket is larger, but should do well on 24/40 reloads. The review on the Aero Dart over in EMRR is very positive. Anyone here fly this rocket?

New smooth jaw clips.jpg

Crossfire ISX 03-30-13.jpg

Leviathan 03-31-13.jpg
 
Powerful batteries are great!

Excellent, now that you have a powerful battery you need to remember that with great power comes great responsibility - i.e. be careful that you do not short the clips against each other or the rod or deflector. The result of a full short can be a massive current flow that can melt the launch leads. This can be easily avoided by making sure the clips are far apart and can fall away in opposite directions and do not fall towards each other.

And do not be surprised when the radio shack micro clips rust away. They are steel with a thin copper coating that will quickly burn off. When you are ready, order a pair of stainless clips from NARTS.
 

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