Offtopic Purgatory

[Ez2cDave]

It’s absurd from our end too. We would empty out our inventory with no assured income, and have no way to fill orders from paying customers.

I wasn't suggesting a "shotgun approach" . . .

I would start with a survey of rocketeers, in both NAR & TRIPOLI . . . Asking the following questions.

(1) What is your location ?
(2) How often do you fly Aerotech products ?
(3) Which Aerotech products do you most often use ?
(4) Would your usage of Aerotech products increase, if they were available in local stores ?
(5) If your usage of Aerotech products would increase, with local retail access ( no shipping / hazmat ), how much would it increase ?
(6) What Aerotech products would you like to see in local stores ?
(7) What stores, in your area ( give name & location of business ), would you like to be considered to sell Aerotech products ?
(8) How far would you be willing to drive to purchase Aerotech products from a retail store ?
(9) How much, on average, do you spend on Rocketry, per month, and how much of that is for Aerotech products ?

Dave F.

 

[dr-ws]

I wasn't suggesting a "shotgun approach" . . .

I would start with a survey of rocketeers, in both NAR & TRIPOLI . . . Asking the following questions.

(1) What is your location ?
(2) How often do you fly Aerotech products ?
(3) Which Aerotech products do you most often use ?
(4) Would your usage of Aerotech products increase, if they were available in local stores ?
(5) If your usage of Aerotech products would increase, with local retail access ( no shipping / hazmat ), how much would it increase ?
(6) What Aerotech products would you like to see in local stores ?
(7) What stores, in your area ( give name & location of business ), would you like to be considered to sell Aerotech products ?
(8) How far would you be willing to drive to purchase Aerotech products from a retail store ?
(9) How much, on average, do you spend on Rocketry, per month, and how much of that is for Aerotech products ?

Dave F.

My sister heads the survey and research division of a national organization. She is well-paid (she works VERY hard, with long hours) to design, implement and analyze surveys. Response rates vary. Factual answers arguably vary. Reply times vary. Survey completeness [by respondent] varies (a huge problem for my sister). Survey bias occurs (responses vary depending upon how much you 'like' the organization surveyed).
I know that I myself would not be able to quickly nor precisely answer several of those questions as posed (and they would vary substantially, depending upon the season/year, especially #3, 5, 6, 8, 9(!)), and I nerdishly track receipts, products purchased (+ date/vendor/price), and such. (And I like AeroTech!)
Not only would a survey be time-consuming, I also don't believe it would be inexpensive (cost-recoupment - how much more do you want the engines that are already available to you to cost?) nor timely. In short, AeroTech, as a business, runs their business the best that they know how. I've no doubt that they appreciate a suggestion such as this; respectfully, I just don't know how viable of a suggestion this one is.

 

[jsdemar]

You are ignoring content by this member. Show ignored content

Life is so much better here! Please join me.

 

[AndrewGil]

Life is so much better here! Please join me.

+1 Its great!

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

Supposedly (I have not tried this, but now I might....) that Visco sheathed in shrink tube will act similarly to thermalite, just burn a lot slower, still LOTS faster than straight Visco. Now, again supposedly you can unwind the OD of Visco so remove a lot of the overwrap that inhibits the flame front from traveling on the outside of the fuse (like Thermalite) and this will speed up the burn considerably.

You should always remove the outer steel wires and thread as it will also inhibit the flame from igniting the visco from the outside .
I always shrink wrap mine and it speeds up the burn by almost 200 percent.
When I shrink mine , I loop the top where it will be in the motor and tuck it back into the shrink wrap , then shrink it . This will make it look like a eye bolt . This also give the visco twice the area to ignite the motor it's in.

 

[StreuB1]

You should always remove the outer steel wires and thread as it will also inhibit the flame from igniting the visco from the outside .
I always shrink wrap mine and it speeds up the burn by almost 200 percent.
When I shrink mine , I loop the top where it will be in the motor and tuck it back into the shrink wrap , then shrink it . This will make it look like a eye bolt . This also give the visco twice the area to ignite the motor it's in.

IIRC, Visco does not have steel wires on its exterior, they are linen or jute I believe. Either or, yes they should be removed along with the wax and poly coating. You can use acetone in a rag and drag it through that, that will remove the outer water proofing. Then you can uncover the core fuse and expose the BP cord.

The doubling over of the head end is indeed the way to go. That is standard procedure with Thermalite. Though on small motors like I was referring to above, that would be impossible due to the size of the loop.

Back in the day when I actually HAD Thermalite. For larger motors or large ports (Dp > ~7/8"), I would coil it up like a cork screw and make sure it was about the diameter of the grain port. Then I would tape it to a stick and install a match at either end. This works really well with especially hard to light propellant, like AMW and particularly Gorilla greens. Not sure Visco would work with that due it being just BP where as Thermalite's composition was partially thermitic so it produced a LOT of incandescent particulate when it burned.

Incandescent particulate being the absolute key when it comes to igniting "things."

 

[jsdemar]

You can also make fuse cord yourself. This is especially useful when a small diameter is needed to air-start (or stage) smaller motors. Begin with a small diameter wire scuffed up with sandpaper. Many options for pyrogens and dipping methods. (Details elsewhere!).

 

[StreuB1]

You can also make fuse cord yourself. This is especially useful when a small diameter is needed to air-start (or stage) smaller motors. Begin with a small diameter wire scuffed up with sandpaper. Many options for pyrogens and dipping methods. (Details elsewhere!).

While we have REALLY gotten off topic, this is always good to chat about.

One of the only con's of Thermalite (and nearly all of its home-made analogs), is that its brittle. This is why its imperative to use stiff wire as the core to do the coating. That's why Thermalite does it as well and it is also why they tightly wrap the outside in thin Dacron thread (also to color code it) as well as the radial nichrome wires. This keeps the composition from cracking and falling away.

Now, someone a long time ago came up with a "flexible" version of thermalite and they pulled normal black Dacron thread (for fishing!) through the slurry and due to the binder, it would cure up and remain flexible. Though, the binder and composition was of a type that allowed it to burn very fast and hot, very uncharacteristic of a pyro compound using a polyol binder. It burned "similar" to a composition bound with a gum or dextrin but was not hard and would not easily crack.

I have some OLD igniters that I think Darrel made for me long ago that used this composition on the head. They have since gone hard but I recall when I initially got them around 1994ish, they were "flexible." or more so ductile. NOT rubbery, but sort of like PBAN with excess epoxy added or HTPB with excess curative, but adding like EH diol so its flexible and hard, but if you bend it too far, it cracks and splits. Like an eraser.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Life is so much better here! Please join me.

+1 Its great!

It's your loss . . .

I never "ignore" anyone, because I want to know what they might be saying about me, rather than running around with my fingers stuck in my ears, going la, la, la, la, la.

Dave F.

 

[Tractionengines]

You can also make fuse cord yourself.

While we have REALLY gotten off topic, this is always good to chat about.

I agree an interesting topic. BUT Aerotech can NOT be involved with telling us how we could or shouldn't go about it. It opens them to liability issues.

PLEASE MOVE THESE MESSAGES AND CONVERSATION BASED ON THEM TO ANOTHER THREAD.
Either the non-restricted staging and air-strart forum, or here in propulsion, would both work.

 

[loopy]

I wasn't suggesting a "shotgun approach" . . .

I would start with a survey of rocketeers, in both NAR & TRIPOLI . . . Asking the following questions.

(1) What is your location ?
(2) How often do you fly Aerotech products ?
(3) Which Aerotech products do you most often use ?
(4) Would your usage of Aerotech products increase, if they were available in local stores ?
(5) If your usage of Aerotech products would increase, with local retail access ( no shipping / hazmat ), how much would it increase ?
(6) What Aerotech products would you like to see in local stores ?
(7) What stores, in your area ( give name & location of business ), would you like to be considered to sell Aerotech products ?
(8) How far would you be willing to drive to purchase Aerotech products from a retail store ?
(9) How much, on average, do you spend on Rocketry, per month, and how much of that is for Aerotech products ?

Dave F.

So then what happens to the local vendors that show up at launches?

 

[boatgeek]

So then what happens to the local vendors that show up at launches?

Oh, we're completely upending the rocketry economic system based on assumptions and handwaving. They'll do just fine once we assume some unicorn fur snowshoes for them to sell.

 

[Ez2cDave]

So then what happens to the local vendors that show up at launches?

The same thing that happened in the past, when more local shops carried Rocketry products . . . It's called "competition".

Dave F.

 

[loopy]

The same thing that happened in the past, when more local shops carried Rocketry products . . . It's called "competition".

Dave F.

It's also called shutting down local vendors that only cater to the local clubs (the primary buyers of these motors anyway). No more on site vendors at these launches.

 

[Ez2cDave]

It's also called shutting down local vendors that only cater to the local clubs (the primary buyers of these motors anyway). No more on site vendors at these launches.

Well, that never seemed to be a problem in earlier years, when brick & mortar stores carried Aerotech rocketry products ( LPR & MPR ) . . . Why is it a problem now ?

Those on-field vendors are, largely, HPR motor sellers. HPR motors would never make it in retail stores, due the the Certification requirement to purchase them, legally.

Brick & mortar stores would carry LPR and MPR rocketry, kits, supplies, & motors . . . Where is the "existential threat" to on-field vendors ?

Dave F.

 

[cwbullet]

This little thread will be the keeper of all off topic posts that devolve into arguments. Pleas keep them here.

 

[dr wogz]

?

not too sure I understand what this thread is about..

 

[Banzai88]

?

not too sure I understand what this thread is about..

It's all the side conversation stuff from the motor threads on how to best increase distribution and sales of MP/HP motors.

 

[dr wogz]

then why is it here, and not in the Motors / propulsion forum?

for those who don't frequent that forum, this is just a weird / vague thread..

 

[Charles_McG]

Don’t worry about it - it’s just some people second guessing other peoples’ business.

 

[cwbullet]

It's all the side conversation stuff from the motor threads on how to best increase distribution and sales of MP/HP motors.

exactly. This is a thread of shame.

 

[astronwolf]

Life is so much better here! Please join me.

 

[SecondRow]

then why is it here, and not in the Motors / propulsion forum?

for those who don't frequent that forum, this is just a weird / vague thread..

It looks to be a thread where mods will dump all off topic arguments from other threads. Best if you just put it on ignore.

 

[Igotnothing]

?

not too sure I understand what this thread is about..

Yes you do!

No I don't!

That'll be 5 quid.

 

[dr wogz]

Yes you do!

No I don't!

That'll be 5 quid.

$8.15 CAD..

send me a receipt please..

 

[cwbullet]

$8.15 CAD..

send me a receipt please..

For taxes?

 

[shockie]

?

not too sure I understand what this thread is about..

Me 2

 

[Hobie1dog]

time for me to hit the big red "ignore button"

 

[dr wogz]

For taxes?

socialism costs..

 

[loopy]

Okay . . . I was not talking about only purchasing motors, but components, also ( hence my usage of "rocketry products" ).

(1) That would only be an option, once a month, not every day, obviously.
(2) LPR / MPR rocketeers fly a lot of single-use motors, too, not just reloads, plus components ( Tubes, Nose Cones, Rings, etc. )
(3) How far do you drive to get to the field? ( in my case, it's almost 3 hours, each way ).

Under your system, you would have to drive whatever distance, each way, to get to an onsite vendor . . . What about months you might not be flying, months with bad weather, and months precluded by local weather snow ), depending on where rocketeers live ?

During that time, how would you be designing & building rockets, at home ( rocketry is not all "kits", after all ) ?

Dave F.

Under my system, I'm getting parts/kits/components from the sources I currently use for such things. I plan ahead for what I'm going to need for any particular product and order what I need from whichever vendor carries what I need for that project. sometimes it's multiple vendors, and sometimes it's not. Would I like a one stop shop for all that? Of course. But the likelihood of that happening on big projects is pretty small, even if LHS were stocked the way the online vendors are. And again - it all goes back to the fact that LHS are not focused on the rocketry community in any way, shape, or form. It's exceedingly rare to find a hobby shop that carries anything more than the most basic LPR kits and what not. This is not a decision made by the suppliers (e.g. LOC, AT, Mad Cow), but by the retailers. They know what sells in their areas, and order from the suppliers according to that need.

I agree it would be nice to see more MPR/HPR representation, but you'll never see that in the broader hobby shop setting because we are a small niche in an already small community.