Oddly familiar kit...

[Binder Design]

New Estes kit. This look familiar to anyone?

 

[cwbullet]

Similar to the Astron Cherokee

 

[EXPjawa]

And not that new, really. Estes made that available late last year, IIRC. Its basically an Argent with the upper transition section replaced with a cone. And yeah, its quite similar to an upscaled Cherokee. The fins are differently proportioned, though. Just before this became available, I built a Cherokee upscale using the Argent, another nose cone, and reshaped fins. This Panavia is nearly dead-nuts to the original short-proportion Cherokee out of the box, just needs new fins. Where you implying something else?

 

[Binder Design]

Where you implying something else?

Nevermind, I guess it is just me.....

 

[cavecentral]

Excel?

 

[blackjack2564]

Excel?

+1 That's what I was thinking.

 

[fyrfytr310]

+1 That's what I was thinking.

+2

Now who else thought this was a new Binder kit announcement

 

[danielsadjadi]

Really similar to a Cherokee-D

 

[DizWolf]

I thought it looked like a stumpy Optima at first.


There's really only so many ways to cut a fin.

 

[rharshberger]

Nope, never seen one before.....

 

[Oberon]

Yeah the Panavia is literally the back half of an Argent with the Partizon cone (I'm actually thinking of buying an extra cone and flying my Argent in this configuration). It's kind of an obvious kitbash/SPEV to go along with the Sahara (short Argent with Partizon fins). Fins are definitely a similar shape to the Excel (but also to the Cherokee D) and the proportions are different.

I mean, we're not actually suggesting that Estes had a devious plan in 2011 to introduce the Argent and Partizon so they could kitbash them in 2015 and sort of kind of rip off the substantially bigger / heavier duty Excel? (This is of course nothing against Binder, who by all accounts make awesome kits - I'm actually kind of coveting a long 4" paper and ply bird, but I'm not sure how to pick which one ...)

 

[Binder Design]

I mean, we're not actually suggesting that Estes had a devious plan in 2011 to introduce the Argent and Partizon so they could kitbash them in 2015 and sort of kind of rip off the substantially bigger / heavier duty Excel?

No, but the similarities are very close. I'm more concerned about losing sales to Estes than who is copying who. That kit silhouette is the trademark in our logo. BTW, our 3" diameter Excel replaced our 2.6" version. If the shoe was on the other foot, I'm more than confident that I'd be getting a letter in the mail. Estes tried to sue Public Enemy rockets over the Fat Boy name even though the Public Enemy Fat Boy kit was out for many years before Estes released their Fat Boy. They have an ignorance to what is already in the market before they release something, and then after the fact, go after them.

 

[Oberon]

Well, then write them a letter. If you're thinking they did it maliciously, have a lawyer friend write it.

As Diz already said, there's only so many ways to cut a fin (and make a 3FNC). The Cherokee, Optima, heck even the EAC Viper all have main fins that are minor variations on the same theme that the Excel has (and looks damn good with). And on the other side, your Lightning Bolt could easily be a stretch Hi-Flyer.

You're talking here to an audience more familiar with Binder than most, and yet no one had apparently made the connection until you brought it up here (I went back and looked at the intro thread for the Panavia, everyone thought Cherokee). So I honestly don't think you're losing that many sales, but you know better than I and maybe a bunch of people are telling you "I would have bought an Excel but why bother, I'll just get a Panavia". To me they serve two totally different markets, and like I already said I think the resemblance is coincidental and frankly both seem inspired by some classic kits. But that's just my :2: of potential customer feedback, ultimately it's your brand to protect as you deem necessary.

 

[Kruegon]

Considering those fins were originally for another kit, and all they did was kit bash their own parts, I doubt it's malicious. Plus it's not even in the same class as binder kits. This one is only meant to run on G80's at max. Even though we shove I200's in them lol.

 

[Len B]

 

[K'Tesh]

Here's a problem that I can see for BD. They could claim that the Excel is a knockoff of the Cherokee D (which is considerably older).

Taking Len B's idea a step further...







I edited in the PSII upscale of the Cherokee D (Long version) using the Partizon's NC. This was a fast modification so the weight/CG/CP isn't right.

Mind you, the Excel that I've simmed here is based on the 4" that was downscaled, so I can't vouch for the fin shapes, length, or the shape of the nosecone. Oh, and ignore the stability messages for the Excel... It is based on 54mm Motor mount (with motor), not the actual 29mm or 38mm Kit.

 

[dixontj93060]

There is a long heritage of these similar rockets (see: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?33069-Rocket-R-amp-D-Brutus-Gallery&p=569756#post569756). In fact, Eric C. has a Rocket R&D Brutus for sale right now (note fins in his kit below). But I do believe the Estes Cherokee predates all the HPR versions with its release in 1970: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-D-(K-47-or-1247)-Gallery&p=266927#post266927. I haven't done side-by-side comparisons, but it seems like the Cherokee-D has a longer root chord than others of this genre.

 

[K'Tesh]

There is a long heritage of these similar rockets (see: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?33069-Rocket-R-amp-D-Brutus-Gallery&p=569756#post569756). In fact, Eric C. has a Rocket R&D Brutus for sale right now (note fins in his kit below). But I do believe the Estes Cherokee predates all the HPR versions with its release in 1970: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-D-(K-47-or-1247)-Gallery&p=266927#post266927. I haven't done side-by-side comparisons, but it seems like the Cherokee-D has a longer root chord than others of this genre.

View attachment 285159

Good idea... I edited in a PSII version of the Cherokee D (Long version). The root cord is much longer... The Cherokee D is 7.075", the Argent/Panavia fins are 4.875" at the root, and if I'm right about the Excel, its root is 4.147" long.

 

[dixontj93060]

Good idea... I edited in a PSII version of the Cherokee D (Long version). The root cord is much longer... The Cherokee D is 7.075", the Argent/Panavia fins are 4.875" at the root, and if I'm right about the Excel, its root is 4.147" long.

Hmm. That really shows it. Fins on Cherokee are much bigger.

Curious... For the PSII Cherokee did Estes just use the standard ogive nose cone (looks like that in your illustration) or did they use the traditional more conical secant-ogive (https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?34836-Cherokee-X-nosecone&p=326274#post326274)?

 

[rharshberger]

Hmm. That really shows it. Fins on Cherokee are much bigger.

Curious... For the PSII Cherokee did Estes just use the standard ogive nose cone (looks like that in your illustration) or did they use the traditional more conical secant-ogive (https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?34836-Cherokee-X-nosecone&p=326274#post326274)?

Estes is calling it the Panavia, and it uses the Argents fins.

 

[dixontj93060]

Estes is calling it the Panavia, and it uses the Argents fins.

Oh, so there really isn't a PSII Cherokee as shown in post #16? K'tesh just upscaled a Cherokee to the PSII size?

 

[rharshberger]

Oh, so there really isn't a PSII Cherokee as shown in post #16? K'tesh just upscaled a Cherokee to the PSII size?

Thats correct, I plan on doing one myself after the 5.5" Cherokee is done.

 

[Binder Design]

In fact, Eric C. has a Rocket R&D Brutus for sale right now (note fins in his kit below).

The Brutus became the Excel. Scott Binder designed it. I still have the original Brutus fin template that Scott Binder scratched off the Brutus name and wrote "Excel" under it.

 

[Binder Design]

I'm not up for a legal battle nor do I think it was malicious. The similarity of the design bothers me, but it is out of my control so I'm not going to let it stress me out.

Do you think anybody would be interested in Excel decals to fit their Estes kit? These are a perfect fit without modification to the file. I can make them in a color of your choosing. Might as well make some money off of this.

 

[Binder Design]

This one is only meant to run on G80's at max. Even though we shove I200's in them lol.

As was our 2.6" Excel that we replaced with a 3" version. Those were awesome on G80's.

 

[K'Tesh]

Oh, so there really isn't a PSII Cherokee as shown in post #16? K'tesh just upscaled a Cherokee to the PSII size?

Yes, I had a damaged Argent, and using parts from it, and from Estes (namely, another body tube segment, and a Partizon's NC), I created an upscale to the Cherokee D (long version). The Argent's nosecone and forward body tube (along with another purchased from Estes) became an upscale to the Yellow Jacket, but it wasn't finished before I had to box them up and store them while I'm in China.

Decals by Stickershock.

It has a zipperless recovery, and the split is just behind the large wrap.

 

[ECayemberg]

The Brutus became the Excel. Scott Binder designed it. I still have the original Brutus fin template that Scott Binder scratched off the Brutus name and wrote "Excel" under it.

Though changed it from 4 fins to 3. In fact, my built "Brutus EXT" is a Binder Excel with an extra fin. Love the classic, basic yet elegant design.

-Eric-

 

[Binder Design]

In fact, my built "Brutus EXT" is a Binder Excel with an extra fin. Love the classic, basic yet elegant design.

-Eric-

Thanks, it is our flagship rocket even after 20+ years of production.

 

[AlnessW]

New Estes kit. This look familiar to anyone?

Damn looks like an Excel to me...

Mine is around here somewhere - I think I kept a few of the parts for nostalgia.



Awesome rocket. Got my L2 with this! 11 flights total, most of which on K motors, until the airframe finally let go on a sledgehammer motor. The fin can actually survived (very strong plywood!) should I ever wish to rebuild it.

 

[neond7]

I love both my excel kits. I did this one up in custom vinyl for a rocket contest at my work. Both great flying kits - both always fly straight as an arrow.....