# O.K. I need a history lesson here...

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#### el chubbo

##### Well-Known Member
I just caught a link over to www.rocket-forum.com. I don't know who this forum is intended to appeal to nor do I know who these people are...

But...it seems that everyone is:

a. incredibly nasty in their posts

and

b. most of the posters hate a guy named "jerry irvine".

Can someone give me a quick history lesson as to who is JI and why he is apparently liked as much a ruptured boil? Why is TRA getting slammed?

I am not interested in hashing out whatever they are trying to hash out on the other forum...I would just like the history and background of the conflict...

less opinions and more facts would work nicely for me....

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
well this may be removed but, I can give a brief overveiw....some will go deeper into it but I will try to make my post as un political as possible.

Anyway, Jerry makes motors, US rockets is his company's name. something happened years ago (I am not sure what) I think he complained about the way TRA worked, as he still does. Needless to say the certs for all his motors were pulled and he is constantly complaining on RMR, and he also supposedly attacks people verbally.

Essentially people hate him because he is so involved in the polotics of rocketry and gets very very emotional. If you notice there is very little talk of polotics on TRF and this keeps the forum clear of any fights and trash. RMR has essentially turned into a yelling match about who knows more about politics and what is right for rocketry.

more people can fill you in as they know the long history.

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
I just looked over that site, it is like RMR except with a different format....alot of the posts are the same

#### Chr$##### Well-Known Member I haver not looked at rocket-forum until just now. It looks like a mirror of RMR. If you want to supplement your online needs with another forum, Rocketry online (ROL) has some good forums, but they are pretty slow as far as new content goes. Some of the stuff there is cross posted over here and RMR. Also ROL's Infocentral is a good resource, plus there is a huge dbase of vendor and individual links. bear with the few outdated links, and you will find some good content there. Also, Jerry's IP is blocked from it so he does not post there. There are also some Yahoo groups such as micromaxx and old rockets, among others that you can look into. A lot of the folks like Holverson and Pratt are in Old rockets, and are a wealth of information. It too is friendly. A lot of clubs use Yahoo groups too. We use it as a bulletin board in our club. As for JI, I emailed him a few times to ask about his products. He is usually cordial. A lot of what is posted about him is emotional as well, so take everything with a grain of salt. There is a lot of bad blood among a lot of those folks, it's like the OK corral sometimes. The availability of his motors is iffy. I think he only sells them in person at launches. He doesn't ship them unless you buy a pallet load, so I hear. I have seen a few, and what I have seen is pretty cool. Overall, RMR's bickering is good for entertainment value, and that's about it. If you want rocket content, this forum is the best. My two cents. #### el chubbo ##### Well-Known Member This forum is (without question) the greatest resource I have at my fingertips.... As the coordinator of an elementary school rocket club I cannot tell you how many times I have found the answer to my questions here... My students read the forum and I have yet to have a parent object... heck - I have yet to have the administrators object (this IS a miracle) I forgot how I linked over to the other forum... Forget about ji's motors...I wouldn't take them if they were free if the supply is not stable.... Reading the other forum reminded me of (7) old geezers getting together and arguing about which street the soda fountain used to be located at... Thanks to everyone on TRF for a GREAT forum.... #### sandman ##### Well-Known Member WOW! I never saw that forum before! It's awful! End of statement! sandman #### Ryan S. ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by Chr$

Also, Jerry's IP is blocked from it so he does not post there.

Overall, RMR's bickering is good for entertainment value, and that's about it. If you want rocket content, this forum is the best.

My two cents.
That is very interesting, the IP thing

I agree with what you said about RMR, great entertainment, but as for resources, you cannot get better than TRF

#### Silverleaf

##### Well-Known Member
So, I guess the obvious questions is:

IF his motors are viable, and have a consistent (read: fall within proper guidelines) why hasn't his motors been re-certified.

Not to continue this discussion any further, BUT I'd be interested to understand exactly why his motors were dropped from the certified list.

3 words:

Can Of Worms.

#### WiK

Lmao theres a post on there with a subject of "A genuine rocketry-related post"

I've never heard of that forum. Looks alot like RMR when you view it through the Google Newsgroups tool...

It just makes you realise what a great place TRF is...

#### astronboy

##### Well-Known Member
Silverleaf,

I emailed JI directly about this, and received a reply that made no sense. It is sad since I would love to see another motor manufacturer of any type.

"So, I guess the obvious questions is:

IF his motors are viable, and have a consistent (read: fall within proper guidelines) why hasn't his motors been re-certified."

#### Chuck Rudy

##### Well-Known Member
All I'll say in this thread is I've witnessed JI's motors in person, the Buttkicker formula really hauls, and not one CATO. They *should* be available, but such is life.

#### Chilly

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by sandman
WOW!

I never saw that forum before!

It's awful!

End of statement!

sandman
You mean there's something out there actually worse than RMR? Whenever I'm bored enough to visit that place, it makes me come out feeling like I need a long shower.

From my understanding of the JI vs TRA situation, it is not going to be possible to discuss it in this forum for very long. If you really want to get the lowdown you'll have to cruise RMR for awhile - make sure your tetanus shot's up to date first.

And that's all the moderators are probably willing to allow here, if they're not about to shut down this thread already.

As Forrest Gump said, "that's all I have to say about that".

#### Silverleaf

##### Well-Known Member
No worries on going into any more detail.

I've started a email conversation with someone whos been filling me in.

Cheers,

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Guy's
Please DO NOT contact Jerry, I know him personally and YOU DO NOT Want to! frankly I believe he is certifiably insane.
more importantly He's never seen anyone he wouldn't screw for a nickel.
nuf said please drop this thread!!! Danger!!!

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
I tallked to a friend who told me that that forum was RMR just reposted.

#### Ray Dunakin

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by el chubbo
Can someone give me a quick history lesson as to who is JI and why he is apparently liked as much a ruptured boil? Why is TRA getting slammed?

I am not interested in hashing out whatever they are trying to hash out on the other forum...I would just like the history and background of the conflict...

less opinions and more facts would work nicely for me....
Here's the story in a nutshell, as brief and opinion-free as possible:

Jerry was one of the early high power manufacturers (motors and kits). His company was U.S. Rockets. He sponsored some of the largest early HPR launches, at Lucerne dry lake. He also published a mag called California Model Rocketry. He had some kind of business relationships with a variety of other people in the hobby, such as Frank Kosdon, Chuck Rogers, Fred Brennion, Gary Rosenfield, etc.

When I got into high power back in 1987 and started going to organized launches, the first time I met any other rocket hobbyists I was warned to avoid Jerry and USR. Apparently a number of folks had had some bad dealings with him. I bought motors from him at launches but never paid cash in advance. Most of his motors (that I tried) worked ok, when they didn't he was always good about replacing them.

At some point, by the end of the 80's, Jerry had a falling out with just about everyone who ever had been in business with him. Kosdon sued him for fraud, and won. Jerry sued Kosdon (and various other people) and lost. I've been told that Jerry can no longer sue anyone, because the court declared him a "vexatious litigant".

When someone else started running the launches at Lucerne in the early 90's, they discovered that Jerry had not always had the waivers that he claimed to have. TRA conducted an investigation and suspended his membership.

In the mid-90's, TRA had to tighten the rules for manufacturers wishing to have their motors certified. Motor manufacturers now had to submit proof that they were in compliance with all regulations covering the manufacture and shipping of motors. Jerry submitted various documents at various times, which were either in someone else's name, had been altered, or were otherwise invalid. As a result TRA was unable to renew the certs on his motors. The standard three year grace period was allowed, for flyers to use up previously certed motors. Then it was discovered that Jerry was back-dating new motors to make them look like previously certified motors. TRA was forced to immediately pull the certification on all his motors.

Since that time Jerry has done little more than rant endlessly against TRA/NAR, his various former associates, etc while trying to convince everyone of his greatness. He is either unable or unwilling to get his act together so he can have his motors legitimately certified. At various times, he claims he: Is a manufacturer, is not a manufacturer, is only a consultant, is a just a distributor, etc. He blames TRA/NAR for his inability to have his motors certified, and also blames them for every regulation of rocketry ever create, and pretty much anything else in the world that he dislikes.

In 2001 he applied to have his membership in TRA reinstated, but refused to accept responsibility for his actions and dodged or refused to answers most direct questions.

#### Hospital_Rocket

##### Well-Known Member
Ray

Thank you for the post. I have asked the same question about six different ways on RMR and never got a cogent answer.

My recent thread entitled "I'm Confused" generated some good discussion for a while then devolved into the usual barfight.

Just for the record, If you do look at RMR there are some people who do seem to try and post consistently solid material about rocketry. Some of these folks might hang out here under other names.

Shockwaveriderz (Shockie B.) - he hangs out here as well
Joel Corwith - good stuff on building and flying
Doktor Dynasoar - a real live brane doktor (he reads this and would understand)
Doc - great stuff on materials
Zathras of the Great Machine
David Erbas-White
Bobbyb - he owns Hangar11.com
a.hornsbyiii
- not frequent but most always good.

Then of course there is you and I

#### el chubbo

##### Well-Known Member
That is what I needed to know. You have been extremely helpful!