Nic does make this look easy!
O-Engine Altitude Questions for High School Rocket Club
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Here is an example of brazing a fin can:
https://www.ausrocketry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3593&start=160
https://www.ausrocketry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3593&start=160
So it can work! Thanks for sharing that with me. Sorry that rocket never got off the ground; must be frustrating. So just using a thin walled tube to epoxy/ adhere around the base, heat it up and torch the area then melt braze along the base of the fins on? That's ingenius.
-Jack
-Jack
cbrarick
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Ok, so now let's pump the brakes for a reality check.
You're a sophomore in high school, right? So, you're about 16 years old and so are your friends.
So you're not high powered certified (Tripoli has a mentorship program, but you're not making or flying EX motors there)
And you've never made a high powered rocket.
Now you want to make a metal rocket, so now you're launching at BALLS only. Can you get there? Parents gonna fund the trip and go?? if you're not 18 you need a parent out at BALLS. and, unless they've changed, they really discourage young ones. Check their website..
And you want to make a O motor as your first project because you found it on the web....
But you have to be 18 and certified Tripoli level 2 to make motors and fly them, and then that O motor will cost you a level 3 certification to fly(look up all the requirements, it's also gonna cost you a commercial M motor)
Just want to give you my experiences: 6 years as a level 3 before I made and flew my first O motor
7 years making motors before I made that motor. A track record of more M's and N's then I really want to count before I got there.
I'd suggest you guys scale back to something do-able in your high school years. I'm not sure where you guys are, but look at the clubs in your area, see how high you can fly there. Figure out a waiver scratcher, maybe even make it difficult (a two stage min diameter rocket 29mm or 24 mm is very difficult to get everything in there) which could even be done on commercial G motors, or perhaps an H or I motor (so you do Tripoli mentor / NAR Jr L1). Those types of projects can be both very difficult, but still within your capacity in the near future. PLUS they will prepare you for the "O motor challenge" when you get into college and you acquire the certifications and experience to do THAT project. Think of it this way:
high school: waiver scratcher, Tripoli mentor / NAR JR L1 cert
Turn 18: Tripoli level 2, find a mentor and start making motors
before college out: O motor to 50,000
On this forum you need to discuss the motor on the EX forum. Please check the rules as to how to obtain access (not so certain you can until you're 18). There's a fair number of us who have done O motors that could give you advice. I'll be the first to say that given that I haven't done many, I'm not all that qualified there.....because I can think of many people who routinely do O motors.
JMHO, but starting out O and 50,000 feet isn't a realistic goal for you guys. Take my opinion for what it's worth.
You're a sophomore in high school, right? So, you're about 16 years old and so are your friends.
So you're not high powered certified (Tripoli has a mentorship program, but you're not making or flying EX motors there)
And you've never made a high powered rocket.
Now you want to make a metal rocket, so now you're launching at BALLS only. Can you get there? Parents gonna fund the trip and go?? if you're not 18 you need a parent out at BALLS. and, unless they've changed, they really discourage young ones. Check their website..
And you want to make a O motor as your first project because you found it on the web....
But you have to be 18 and certified Tripoli level 2 to make motors and fly them, and then that O motor will cost you a level 3 certification to fly(look up all the requirements, it's also gonna cost you a commercial M motor)
Just want to give you my experiences: 6 years as a level 3 before I made and flew my first O motor
7 years making motors before I made that motor. A track record of more M's and N's then I really want to count before I got there.
I'd suggest you guys scale back to something do-able in your high school years. I'm not sure where you guys are, but look at the clubs in your area, see how high you can fly there. Figure out a waiver scratcher, maybe even make it difficult (a two stage min diameter rocket 29mm or 24 mm is very difficult to get everything in there) which could even be done on commercial G motors, or perhaps an H or I motor (so you do Tripoli mentor / NAR Jr L1). Those types of projects can be both very difficult, but still within your capacity in the near future. PLUS they will prepare you for the "O motor challenge" when you get into college and you acquire the certifications and experience to do THAT project. Think of it this way:
high school: waiver scratcher, Tripoli mentor / NAR JR L1 cert
Turn 18: Tripoli level 2, find a mentor and start making motors
before college out: O motor to 50,000
On this forum you need to discuss the motor on the EX forum. Please check the rules as to how to obtain access (not so certain you can until you're 18). There's a fair number of us who have done O motors that could give you advice. I'll be the first to say that given that I haven't done many, I'm not all that qualified there.....because I can think of many people who routinely do O motors.
JMHO, but starting out O and 50,000 feet isn't a realistic goal for you guys. Take my opinion for what it's worth.
Not sure about the epoxy. Don't remember that bit. I do remember supporting the brazing idea as I had found it very strong on my 4WD. The aluminium fincan HAS flown. I remember commenting on my relief that it was a success
. It may be detailed on another thread. There was a preliminary fincan for use during development. Don't get that confused with the aluminium one.
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aerorocket
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John Cipolla
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I posted the information on Mad Max II and DDT here to show what effort it takes to make flights of this magnitude, and perhaps give you some ideas. It is not apparent in the posts just how much research, experience and effort have gone into making the flights successful.
Mad Max II fin can is one of a few now that have proved that metal is not a requirement for significant Mach speeds in the region where most HPR rockets play, but working with composites takes care and time to refine skills, so they are not for everyone.
It is good that you are dreaming of getting to 50k' but please do it carefully and safely. I don't think it is a journey that can be rushed too much. Enjoy the voyage.
Mad Max II fin can is one of a few now that have proved that metal is not a requirement for significant Mach speeds in the region where most HPR rockets play, but working with composites takes care and time to refine skills, so they are not for everyone.
It is good that you are dreaming of getting to 50k' but please do it carefully and safely. I don't think it is a journey that can be rushed too much. Enjoy the voyage.
Thank you for bringing this up. I appreciate constructive criticism, but I don't want to be ruled out because of our age. I work extremely hard when I set my mind to something; I have never been more motivated by a project than this one.
Ironically, most of us are 15, a few are 17-18.
I am not certified with NAR or Tripoli as I said earlier because of my age, and to be honest at the start of this project, I did not think we would succeed. However, our school, my parents, and several people online, over-the -phone, and in the community have been willing to offer advice and financial support, and I am now confident we have the basis we need for success.
I have made I engines in the past (475 NS), and I agree with you, I thought jumping from an I to O engine would be incredibly reckless. Instead, we're going to start much smaller. To characterize the propellant and gain some baseline experience, we'll static test two single grain 4.5" OD ~M engines. These engines will have a substantial number of engineering challenges, and we have only gotten school funding for these two engines as of today. We plan to over-engineer, over-insulate, and choose reliability over performance. If anything goes wrong with these static tests, we will not move forward until we can get these engines to perform perfectly twice. If our tests are successful, we will proceed to static testing the full 30k NS case-bonded finocyl motor. We will not launch until this test is successful. You're correct we don't have enormous experience. But we can't justify spending extremely large sums with repeated smaller diameter, lower thrust engines over longer periods of time because we do intend to hit our altitude goal on budget and schedule next year.
An expert who has an enormous amount of experience with very high-impulse engines has told me that our design is feasible and if correctly built, honestly, should work. The project's feasibility was my very first question for him.
Previous rockets had issues with avionics, so I'm bringing in a mentor to assist with that. We will be launching 3-6 smaller zinc-sulphur rockets to test the different avionic systems so we can decide on one reliable system with a redundancy.
We are located in West Hills, CA, and we are planning on either launching at our former mentor's (NASA engineer) private launch site in the Mojave with a high altitude waiver or at the FAR site with a similar waiver. Our club has launched several rockets to 11,000 feet in the past and a 25,000 feet attempt which failed due to a failed avionic system. These launches occurred before I joined the club. I have never had to file for such a waiver, and if anyone could offer advice or a high altitude application template, we would be very grateful.
Thank you for your response and your suggestions. We need reality checks, but we think our goal is realistic.
-Jack
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Ok great, thanks Ravenex. Brazing will be our first choice when we build the fin can next year.
-Jack
-Jack
OverTheTop,
We'll be sticking to aluminum fins for the sake of simplicity/reliability. We're very excited, but we won't rush things or cut corners. A reckless accident will end the project before it begins. Thanks for the reply.
-Jack
blackbrandt
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Hey Jack, before you consider Zinc Sulfur propellants... you might want to take a look at this thread:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?59899-Why-no-Zinc-Sulfur-Propellants
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?59899-Why-no-Zinc-Sulfur-Propellants
For reliability, seriously consider a commercial altimeter. Extensively tested all over the world
. Remember, you don't know what you don't know.
UPDATE: I have finally made contact with our previous mentor who, with his ties to the Reaction Research Society, can provide us with test stands, launch stands, and equipment. Most importantly, they have a standing high-altitude waiver. I am more confident than ever that this project will be a success. I will be talking to him and a motor expert this evening and will subsequently create a build thread with our initial designs and from there on out recording our progress.
-Jack
-Jack
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boatgeek
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This is my humble opinion as a mentor to very motivated high school students flying MPR to L2 rockets. You don't have to follow advice, but I wouldn't be spending time to write it if I didn't think it was important.
Do not do this project without a mentor who is standing beside you all of the way. You've talked about a former mentor and someone who has done this before who looked at your drawings and plans. Neither of these is a current mentor. You should have a Tripoli L3 mentor who has built and flown O motors before. Like OverTheTop said about altimeters, you don't know what you don't know, and what you don't know about building O motors can leave an awfully big smoking hole in the ground. Likewise, Mach 3 is an extreme flight, with all kinds of things that can go wrong. You will need help to get it right and fly safely and successfully. Going from static fire to full flight is a huge leap.
There is no shame whatsoever in asking for and getting help. You will find it saves you an awful lot of money, time, and work and makes it likely that you will (a) succeed and (b) leave your donors with good thoughts so they are more likely to give to your next project.
Do not do this project without a mentor who is standing beside you all of the way. You've talked about a former mentor and someone who has done this before who looked at your drawings and plans. Neither of these is a current mentor. You should have a Tripoli L3 mentor who has built and flown O motors before. Like OverTheTop said about altimeters, you don't know what you don't know, and what you don't know about building O motors can leave an awfully big smoking hole in the ground. Likewise, Mach 3 is an extreme flight, with all kinds of things that can go wrong. You will need help to get it right and fly safely and successfully. Going from static fire to full flight is a huge leap.
There is no shame whatsoever in asking for and getting help. You will find it saves you an awful lot of money, time, and work and makes it likely that you will (a) succeed and (b) leave your donors with good thoughts so they are more likely to give to your next project.
Boatgeek,
It's very cool to know that other high schools have rocketry programs, where are you guys located? Until this afternoon, we did not have a full-time mentor, but our previous one (extremely qualified) seems willing to come back and supervise the entire project. I will be speaking to him tonight and keep you guys updated. You're absolutely right, our primary goal will always be reliability to save money and promote the club's longevity. In fact, a few small changes to the formula for stability and the reduction in diameter will probably drop the total impulse to 20-25,000 NS, so this might end up being a N engine.
-Jack
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Actually, your number one goal should be safety, with those other goals lining up behind that one.
blackbrandt
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^^^^
This. This a million times. Never sacrifice safety in order to save costs. Hospital bills and insurance costs will ALWAYS be more expensive than what you save.
gcanroc
Custom title
What's your budget for this project? Is this a public HS and are school teachers involved?? Doesn't this raise liabiltiy issues SHOULD something happen when HS students start experimenting with rocket fuel?? Is this being built on HS grounds?? I think it's a noble goal if you were a graduate student at MIT. I just find it hard to believe that this project going to be %100 backed by your school just given the risks involved at building such a high proformance rocket. Either way best of luck.
Gcanroc
Gcanroc
H_Rocket
Death by Powerpoint
One interesting point to me revolves around risk. As you are not building or flying anything within the combined scope of either Tripoli or NAR, how are you insuring against potential incidents? I would be surprised if the school is willing to cover the risk for this. Yes you are planning to fly at a known range, however your motor fabrication is a potential place for things to go wrong, especially if you are messing with ZnS propellant.
Also,
Don't you need someone with a CA Pyro license for this and a Class 3 (I think) waiver for the flight?
Just add those to your to-do pile and keep pushing.
Also,
Don't you need someone with a CA Pyro license for this and a Class 3 (I think) waiver for the flight?
Just add those to your to-do pile and keep pushing.
Nytrunner
Pop lugs, not drugs
At the IREC competition in Utah this summer, a STEM highschool team (~30 members divided into component specialties) brought a liquid engine rocket as their Advanced category entry. The write up and presentation was very well done and they had a Very involved mentor/parent presence. They'd even been able to do engine tests
Brazed fuel line around the nozzle for preheating, arc-torch system for ignition, and a boost sled with two I motors to counteract the slow lift off velocity of liquid propellant (without the sled, they'd have needed a ~130 ft rail). Extremely ambitious, and no one could fault them for effort...BUT, a lot of people were slightly relieved when they aborted halfway through countdown.
Be sure that safety is your highest priority (as others have said). The greatest sign of expertise may be to say "Stop!" at the last second. Even if it means you don't fly this year.
Brazed fuel line around the nozzle for preheating, arc-torch system for ignition, and a boost sled with two I motors to counteract the slow lift off velocity of liquid propellant (without the sled, they'd have needed a ~130 ft rail). Extremely ambitious, and no one could fault them for effort...BUT, a lot of people were slightly relieved when they aborted halfway through countdown.
Be sure that safety is your highest priority (as others have said). The greatest sign of expertise may be to say "Stop!" at the last second. Even if it means you don't fly this year.
Nick@JET
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This is truly ambitious and I commend you for your big dream. Being an L3 myself recently I wouldn't even think this would be feasible for me, my budget and lack of knowledge without taking steps first. Not poking on your dream - that's what I like about Rocketry community - most people here want you to win. But from their perspective they want you to do it without hurting anyone or anything and bruising rocketry as a whole so keep that in mind when you read these replies. If your taking stupid risks - your mentor can steer and guide you.
Obviously you are a smart person and have thought a lot about it. So let the replies refine your path.
I don't think this is wise or doable without an L3 TRA / NAR mentor with you by your side, that's where it starts. Post this and people will start to take this more seriously and you will likely get more specific advice.
Good luck with your endeavor - honestly I wish I was that young when I started
Obviously you are a smart person and have thought a lot about it. So let the replies refine your path.
I don't think this is wise or doable without an L3 TRA / NAR mentor with you by your side, that's where it starts. Post this and people will start to take this more seriously and you will likely get more specific advice.
Good luck with your endeavor - honestly I wish I was that young when I started
RocketFeller
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We aren't a high school, but we have had a rocketry program in place at our K-8 school - Silver Crest School, located in rural Oregon - for seventeen years.
We normally launch LPR rockets in our sports field, but we have done a couple HPR projects over the years. Our first project was an all fiberglass rocket with a 54mm motor mount. We never flew it on more than an 'I' motor, as I was only level 1 certified and I was the only mentor.
Last year we decided to take on a much more ambitious project (although still far short of your intentions), a 12.75" upscale of the Binder Design Dragonfly. The rocket is all carbon fiber and balsa composite and weighs in at ~40 pounds. Our first launch was on a research K3800, our second launch was on an L850W. Our next launch will been an L1590T, followed by a Sparky research 'N'.
This project would never have happened without the guidance of some very experienced rocketeers. Of our three mentors, I am the least experienced. I have been flying HPR since 1999/2000 and am currently L2. My role was to help with the design and fabrication of the rocket. I was present during every step taken. Mike Fisher of Binder Design/Max Q/Fisher Research has been our advisor in regards to motors and built the K3800 for us. He will also be building the sparky 'N' for us. Our third mentor, Gary K., is a retired aerospace engineer, an L3, and a club RSO. He supervised the final assembly and helped us with our simulations.
I don't mean to be discouraging you - we built an "L3" rocket that many people thought would leave its fins fluttering in the breeze as it launched, and we did it with a team of six middle-school girls. I do, however, want to emphasize that the entire process was done with the close attention of several experienced adult mentors. We are currently in the planning stages of our next project, a minimum diameter 98mm 'O' rocket. If our plan comes to fruition it will mean a trip to the Black Rock Desert, several thousand dollars in fundraising, and help from a lot of experts....
Best of luck to you, I will be following this project with interest!
jcamhale
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That was Tesla STEM. If I remember correctly they worked with Aerojet Rocketdyne on that project. I would have like to have seen it launch.
In regards to this O motor project it seems a little too ambitious for a high school to take on. The university that I go to has built up to an Ex N motor for IREC. We are lucky that our technical advisor was willing to help us learn everything.There is just so much stuff that you need to know about working with EX motors that is above high school level. Personally I think you are going to run into costs that you don't expect. I'm not sure what propellant you're planning on using, but it needs to be characterized in at least a 54mm motor and for more accuracy it should be characterized in a larger sized motor (as close to the actual flight motor as possible). All of that adds up quickly. Cost aside the logistics are insane for large projects like that. I would start smaller and work up to the O project.
Of course, bad habit of over-using the #1 priority expression. Our number one priority is always safety. Our top preference for the construction of the engine is reliability so it does not CATO thereby promoting safety.
Our budget is $1500 for the characterization tests. We will update our principal after these tests to try and receive additional funding, if not, we will crowdsource and/or fund raise to put together another $2000. We are a private college prep high school. There are liability issues, and we're putting together release forms and waivers before any large batch or engine test. We have an extremely qualified mentor and will be taking all necessary precautions. The principal knows the mentor and wants to encourage the program, but we understand any mistake even during the extremely small-scale tests we'll be performing soon would likely shut down the project for good. Thanks for the well-wishes.
-Jack
Fortunately, we just solved this problem yesterday. Our mentor has full access to a launch site in the desert which should (I will ask next time we speak) offer insurance through the Reaction Research Society. Regarding ZnS propellant, I don't like it, but the fuel we are getting for next to nothing and we're only going to be using it for rockets we've used many times before for the purpose of real-life avionic tests.
An O engine (and we're likely dropping to a high N) is under the threshold for a Pyro license according to Wikipedia. Wikipedia has never failed me before... please correct me if it is not accurate. The launch site has a standing waiver.:fly:
-Jack
boatgeek
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We are in Seattle, WA. The school has had a rocketry club (https://sites.google.com/site/ingrahamrocketclub/home) since 2006; my daughters have been involved since 2012. I've been an adult mentor since ~2014. The team has competed in TARC for just about every one of those years and participated in the NASA SLI program several times. What I learned from SLI is that the jump from L1 to L2 rockets is very significant. If we had not had support from an L3 mentor, I don't think that the L2 SLI flights would have gone well. I assume that the jump from L2 to L3 is equally large.
I posted this a while back on another thread about someone doing research motors at school. Keep in mind that every major motor manufacturer has had a fire and/or explosion, usually going along with someone getting 3rd-degree burns. If you have a fire/explosion at a high school, you'll have 3-4 things in quick succession. 1) It will make local news. 2) If there's good video and it's a slow news day, it'll make national news. 3) If there is significant damage/injury, the teacher supervising your club will get fired and may never be able to work as a teacher again. 4) If 3 happens, there's a decent chance the principal will get fired. I'm not saying you shouldn't do research motors, just that you need to know what you are asking of the adults supporting you.
[edits] 3 is slightly less likely given that it's a private high school and the principal is fully on board. Unfortunately, that means 4 is more likely especially if the school's board wants a scapegoat for major damage.
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Are you writing these, or having a lawyer draw them up for you? Is the school's legal counsel involved? Also, are your parents aware of the risks involved? They will be the ones on the hook, not you, if something blows up and hurts someone or causes property damage.
As far as ZnS propellant- you say you're getting it for cheap.. but is it the right grade and particle size? Does your mentor have significant experience with ZnS propellant?
That is the most ambitious, and probably the awesomest amateur rocketry idea I've heard of. I probably would have gone with the big rail over a sled :lol:, but that's way out of my depth. Awful shame they didn't succeed. Do you remember the name of the school? I'd like to look them up. Our mentor will have no problem aborting the launch on the rail.
-Jack
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