Now that Estes owns Goex, they might experiment more with carbon sources. This muzzleloader guy found an interesting carbon source, high velocity.

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mlytle0

mlytle0

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I'm not into antique muzzle loaders, except on YouTube, and I don't recommend people make their own black powder, but this guy is trying all sorts of carbon sources for BP and there is wide variability in the performance of BP depending on that, and maybe even Estes could learn something from it.
 
Not saying Estes should make BP out of weird things, but they may consider experimenting since they own the plant that makes the stuff..
 
David Schwantz said:
Used or not?????
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LOL!

Looks like they got a big bump in velocity, better than Goex, better than Swiss, like 150 fps, faster than either., maybe that would translate into a 5% ISP increase in a rocket engine. Of course, maybe that isn't enough to change anything.
 
I did not get the TP BP thing. Chemically, I always thought BP just needed a s source of powdered carbon, and charcoal is easier to grind up. I don't know why they can't just use powdered coal, buckyballs, etc. Our resident TRF chemist did indicate the charcoal does have some extra hydrogen.

I never did understand the twice burned thing, and that goes for twice baked potatoes, re-fried beans, etc. as well. Oddly enough, half baked take-out pizza works.
 
mlytle0 said:
Not saying Estes should make BP out of weird things, but they may consider experimenting since they own the plant that makes the stuff..
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Unlikely. The #1 priority after safety is consistency of product. The most important thing is that every lot of powder is as close as reasonably technologically possible to exactly the same as every other lot of powder of the same spec. BP is a very well established commodity that its users know how to use. The most important thing for 99.9999% of them is that nothing changes, so they can continue to do exactly what they have always done and get exactly the same results.

Even for competitive or just hunting shooters, consistency is king. If they have to go out and spend range time dialing in their setup all over again, that's a huge cost.
 
SolarYellow said:
Unlikely. The #1 priority after safety is consistency of product. The most important thing is that every lot of powder is as close as reasonably technologically possible to exactly the same as every other lot of powder of the same spec. BP is a very well established commodity that its users know how to use. The most important thing for 99.9999% of them is that nothing changes, so they can continue to do exactly what they have always done and get exactly the same results.

Even for competitive or just hunting shooters, consistency is king. If they have to go out and spend range time dialing in their setup all over again, that's a huge cost.
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In the video, the guy judges consistency by the spread in velocities both between shots and between batches. The brand of TP that he tried first and that was the highest performing was Cottenelle, presumably processed from pine. It had consistency similar to Goex. Whatever processing the company that makes this TP did to the original wood pulp, apparently gives a high cellulose and low lignin product that charred very consistently. The fouling and velocities were similar to Swiss black powder, and this guy said both were similar and superior to the performance of Goex. It seems to make sense to me that wood pulp might be more consistent than wood samples for charring if the pulp is processed in large vats or lots with processing to remove sap and bark from the final product. Think of it as homogenizing the start material.
Making TP smooth to the touch probably requires that.

Another brand had an additive that left chunky residue after combustion and was very inconsistent shot to shot, for contrast.

He is still testing other carbon sources, very entertaining.
 
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Carbon is not carbon, is not carbon. I've heard heated 'discussions' among vodka distillers about the source of their activated carbon. Coconut husk being popular, but not universal.

And I recently watched a presentation at work about the variety of surface characteristics of graphite - both structural and modifications with various functional groups - and what that can mean electrically and catalytically.
 
mlytle0 said:
LOL!

Looks like they got a big bump in velocity, better than Goex, better than Swiss, like 150 fps, faster than either., maybe that would translate into a 5% ISP increase in a rocket engine. Of course, maybe that isn't enough to change anything.
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Burn rate does not translate into Isp and vice versa. However BP with a higher burn rate could, for example, turn a baby F15 into a baby F25. Higher thrust but shorter burn time, giving essentially the same Isp and total impulse.

Back in The Land Of Ago, I attended Pyrotechnic Guild Int'l meetings. One activity was Pyro Golf. Participants made the fastest BP they could manage. A weighed portion was screened to 2F, placed in a mortar and topped with a golf ball. Ignition-to-landing was timed (later on they included a chronograph for velocity). Longest flight time won bragging rights. :) I think they started with something like three grams, then lowered it to two grams when they kept losing golf balls.:oops:

Goex 2F was used to provide a baseline. Almost every "golfer" could make BP that was faster than Goex.

For centuries it's been known that the source of carbon makes a huge difference in burn rate of BP, with charcoal generally topping the list. I was surprised to learn that certain types of charcoal are superior even to lampblack (nano-sized particles of nearly pure carbon).

BP manufacturers standardize on a particular variety of charcoal for uniformity. Willow, grapevine, and a few other types produce faster burns. But sourcing large, uniform quantities of these other types of charcoal is something of an impediment to large-scale manufacture.
 
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It is fascinating. I can only speculate that bleached wood pulp makes superior charcoal. Toilet paper is primarily made with GA or Southern pine trees. They may use Douglas Fir elsewhere.
 
prfesser said:
Burn rate does not translate into Isp and vice versa. However BP with a higher burn rate could, for example, turn a baby F15 into a baby F25. Higher thrust but shorter burn time, giving essentially the same Isp and total impulse.

Back in The Land Of Ago, I attended Pyrotechnic Guild Int'l meetings. One activity was Pyro Golf. Participants made the fastest BP they could manage. A weighed portion was screened to 2F, placed in a mortar and topped with a golf ball. Ignition-to-landing was timed (later on they included a chronograph for velocity). Longest flight time won bragging rights. :) I think they started with something like three grams, then lowered it to two grams when they kept losing golf balls.:oops:

Goex 2F was used to provide a baseline. Almost every "golfer" could make BP that was faster than Goex.

For centuries it's been known that the source of carbon makes a huge difference in burn rate of BP, with charcoal generally topping the list. I was surprised to learn that certain types of charcoal are superior even to lampblack (nano-sized particles of nearly pure carbon).

BP manufacturers standardize on a particular variety of charcoal for uniformity. Willow, grapevine, and a few other types produce faster burns. But sourcing large, uniform quantities of these other types of charcoal is something of an impediment to large-scale manufacture.
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I think burn rates that are higher might sometimes lead to higher pressures more quickly and more complete chemical reactions in the shorter amount of time. That may not be a big factor, but in the muzzle-loader tests, it looks like the faster powders had less fouling. Higher performance was cleaner.

I read somewhere many years ago that Goex management preferred hard woods, specifically Maple, which would explain why it is a bit slow. Charcoals made from willow or other low density woods are faster. But I guess in Louisiana, Maple is a consistent source.
 
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As Henry Ford was claimed (dubiously) to have said:
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.
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I guess the same is true for "better performing BP". If more performance is desired, APCP, NC, HMX, BKNO3 or whatnot will do a much better job than the finest imaginable BP, and if performance is not critical, the well known BP still works fine.

Of course, trying to do better just for the heck of it, is always a worthwhile endeavor in my book - just like with faster horses.

Reinhard
 

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