November Fireside Chat - Art Applewhite
- Thread starter JAL3
- Start date
artapplewhite
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- Apr 25, 2009
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- 158
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andytherocketeer
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- Jan 17, 2009
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<Art_Applewhite> Welcome to my first TRF Fireside Chat and although I touch type, I'm a slow thinker so please be patient.
<Art_Applewhite> anyone who doesn't have a question please put _Pass beside your ID using the /nick YourName_Pass function
<Art_Applewhite> Right now the names appear to be alphabetical, who's got the first question
* BlueNinja is now known as BlueAintHere
<WiK> Elapid, H20 and verb0ss are probably away as well
<andy> will start... what made you get into non-conventionally shaped rockets, instead of 3fnc ?
<Art_Applewhite> I have been doing model rocketry since the late 60's and I got tired of 3FNCs
<Art_Applewhite> I thought there ought to be something else but
<Art_Applewhite> No one else seem to be doing it.
<Art_Applewhite> Once I got my first flying saucer to work, I was hooked
<Art_Applewhite> I discovered that with draggy rockets you don't have to walk so far and you can see the entire rocket flight.
<Art_Applewhite> Prep time is much quicker without a parachute also.
<andy> I like that bit
* Chrisn is now known as Chrisn_pass
<Art_Applewhite> My approach to rocket design is a bit backwards.
<Art_Applewhite> I first consider what it will take to recovery a rocket safely,
* Chrisn_pass is now known as Chrisn
<Art_Applewhite> then I think about things like the motor and altitude
<Art_Applewhite> Chrisn, do you have a question?
<Chrisn> What is the highest altitude you have flown a saucer too?
<Art_Applewhite> I don't really know but certainly under 1000 feet
<Chrisn> Have you considered a saucer altitude record contest?
<Art_Applewhite> For me, altitude is not really an issue.
<Art_Applewhite> No, not really because saucers aren't really suited for altitude.
<Art_Applewhite> In my experience, even people who fly high power rockets aren't much interested in altitude records.
<WiK> a contest for the lowest safely recovered flight on a certain motor might be fun
<Art_Applewhite> Yes but difficult to judge,
<Art_Applewhite> What is a safe recovery?
<Chrisn> put some shock stickers on them
<Art_Applewhite> Some would say, a safe recovery is one where the rocket isn't damaged but,
<Art_Applewhite> I've seen rocket lawn dart without damage but you won't want to be under it when it did.
<WiK> hmm
<Art_Applewhite> shock stickers?
* WiK thinks debating that part of the rules would make up half the contest
<Art_Applewhite> Agreed
* H2o has quit (Quit: )
<Art_Applewhite> It would definitely bring out the "Pink Book" lawyers.
<WiK> haha
<Chrisn> Ive seen them on mythbusters (shock stickers)
<Chrisn> trying to find the website
<Art_Applewhite> Chrisn, I hope that answered your question. Elapid
<Art_Applewhite> do you have a question?
<WiK> I think Elapid is probably elsewhere, as is verb0ss
<WiK> so I guess it's me
<Art_Applewhite> Got a question for the Saucer Man?
<WiK> have you ever considered making a Qubit with hinges which will pack down flat?
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, but all the things I tried were either too heavy or too complex (unreliable) or both
<Chrisn> qubit hinges?
<Art_Applewhite> It's hard to put it in words
<Art_Applewhite> Instead of square sides, make it with triangular side then add another set of triangles that fold down for the recovery phase
<Art_Applewhite> The gain in aerodynamic effiency is offset by a loss of stability, increased weight and a reduction in reliability.
<andy> i thought wik was probably refering to one that folds away for shipping/travelling?
<WiK> yeah, that... though one which unfolds in mid flight sounds very cool#
<Art_Applewhite> Oh, it's shaped like a box already. In fact the Priority Stealth (https://www.artapplewhite.com/free.html) is already a box.
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, cool but complex and my design tend to be simple and reliable.
<Art_Applewhite> My approach is to use the minimum amount of materials to acheive a safe flight.
<WiK> yeah, I guess weight needs to be kept at a minimum for aerobrake recovery
<Art_Applewhite> One of the consequences of this philosophy is to eliminate the parachute.
<Art_Applewhite> Weight in one of the main factors determing descent rate
<Art_Applewhite> The lower the weight the lower the descent rate.
<Art_Applewhite> In general, when I design a rocket using aerobrake recovery, I first consider the desired descent rate (20 to 30 fps)
<Art_Applewhite> Then I select the heaviest motor and determine it weight when spent.
<Art_Applewhite> Use a formula that takes into account the Coefficient of Drag (CD) of the airframe I can then determine the necessary frontal surface area.
<Art_Applewhite> Once the frontal surface area is known the other dimensions of the rocket can be determined and an approximate total weight can be found.
<Art_Applewhite> If that weight is still low enough not to exceed the desired descent rate the rocket can be flown.
<Art_Applewhite> Folks have asked me why I don't make an M powered flying saucer kit.
<Art_Applewhite> The reason is the descent rate is too high using the available motor casings and airframe materials.
<Chrisn> even CF?
<andy> it's interesting that you start with descent phase, rather than ascent phase, in the design process. I'd have thought most people would start from the thrust:drag ratio
<Art_Applewhite> I could use CF but I consider it too expensive and too difficult to use by the average builder.
<Art_Applewhite> Thrust:drag is useful if maximum altitude or speed is your goal but with most odd rockets these are a secondary consideration.
<Art_Applewhite> Once your free yourself for the "need of speed" and the "yearning for altitude" you open up a whole new world of exploration.
<andy> I find non-rocketeer spectators like the low and slow kits with the biggest motor that will fit
<Art_Applewhite> There are so many more possibilities when your only goal is safe, reliable recovery.
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, this seems to be the norm.
<andy> an E15 aerotech in the Qubit always has people asking about them
<WiK> the I540 in the 38mm Qubit at IRW was one of the more impressive flights of the week, I thought
<WiK> far too many 3/4FNC rockets in HPR, IMO
<Art_Applewhite> With the Qubit and its derivatives it is possible to use somewhat larger motors are possible.
<Art_Applewhite> 3FNCs have their place but people need to experiment more with airframes. I've just barely scratched the surface so far.
<Art_Applewhite> Urban sprawl is making it harder to find places to fly well designed 3FNCs so people are making them fatter and heavier.
<Art_Applewhite> just to keep from busting the waiver with a M motor.
<Art_Applewhite> A flying saucer is just the logical conclusion of making a fatter rocket.
<WiK> so are you working on anything new at the moment?
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, some smaller (free) rockets that are like 3FNCs but with a simplified recovery system.
<Art_Applewhite> Otherwise, I haven't had anything I consider ground breaking since I came out this the Helix and Double Helix.
<Art_Applewhite> I'm always open to new ideas.
<andy> multi-stage qubit? (or is there one already?)
<Art_Applewhite> I saw one done by a guy in Germany.
* Chrisn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
<Art_Applewhite> He put it on the modellrackeden forum
<andy> oh? not me, but I will take a look
<Art_Applewhite> The problem with 2 stage, high drag designs is they stop suddenly when the thrust stops.
<Art_Applewhite> This causes the second stage to tip over and fly somewhere between horizontal or downward once the motor starts.
<Art_Applewhite> No, not andy. A local guy and it was a couple of years ago.
* RandyT0001 ([email protected]) has joined #TheRocketryForum
<WiK> hey
<Art_Applewhite> Randy, Welcome! Any questions for the Saucer Man?
<RandyT0001> pass for now
<Art_Applewhite> Okay.
<Art_Applewhite> One other things about 2 stage saucers.
<Art_Applewhite> I have tried several ways of doing it.
<Art_Applewhite> I even tried a 18 mm CAD two stage Delta Flying Saucer.
<Art_Applewhite> anyone who doesn't have a question please put _Pass beside your ID using the /nick YourName_Pass function
<Art_Applewhite> Right now the names appear to be alphabetical, who's got the first question
* BlueNinja is now known as BlueAintHere
<WiK> Elapid, H20 and verb0ss are probably away as well
<andy> will start... what made you get into non-conventionally shaped rockets, instead of 3fnc ?
<Art_Applewhite> I have been doing model rocketry since the late 60's and I got tired of 3FNCs
<Art_Applewhite> I thought there ought to be something else but
<Art_Applewhite> No one else seem to be doing it.
<Art_Applewhite> Once I got my first flying saucer to work, I was hooked
<Art_Applewhite> I discovered that with draggy rockets you don't have to walk so far and you can see the entire rocket flight.
<Art_Applewhite> Prep time is much quicker without a parachute also.
<andy> I like that bit
* Chrisn is now known as Chrisn_pass
<Art_Applewhite> My approach to rocket design is a bit backwards.
<Art_Applewhite> I first consider what it will take to recovery a rocket safely,
* Chrisn_pass is now known as Chrisn
<Art_Applewhite> then I think about things like the motor and altitude
<Art_Applewhite> Chrisn, do you have a question?
<Chrisn> What is the highest altitude you have flown a saucer too?
<Art_Applewhite> I don't really know but certainly under 1000 feet
<Chrisn> Have you considered a saucer altitude record contest?
<Art_Applewhite> For me, altitude is not really an issue.
<Art_Applewhite> No, not really because saucers aren't really suited for altitude.
<Art_Applewhite> In my experience, even people who fly high power rockets aren't much interested in altitude records.
<WiK> a contest for the lowest safely recovered flight on a certain motor might be fun
<Art_Applewhite> Yes but difficult to judge,
<Art_Applewhite> What is a safe recovery?
<Chrisn> put some shock stickers on them
<Art_Applewhite> Some would say, a safe recovery is one where the rocket isn't damaged but,
<Art_Applewhite> I've seen rocket lawn dart without damage but you won't want to be under it when it did.
<WiK> hmm
<Art_Applewhite> shock stickers?
* WiK thinks debating that part of the rules would make up half the contest
<Art_Applewhite> Agreed
* H2o has quit (Quit: )
<Art_Applewhite> It would definitely bring out the "Pink Book" lawyers.
<WiK> haha
<Chrisn> Ive seen them on mythbusters (shock stickers)
<Chrisn> trying to find the website
<Art_Applewhite> Chrisn, I hope that answered your question. Elapid
<Art_Applewhite> do you have a question?
<WiK> I think Elapid is probably elsewhere, as is verb0ss
<WiK> so I guess it's me
<Art_Applewhite> Got a question for the Saucer Man?
<WiK> have you ever considered making a Qubit with hinges which will pack down flat?
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, but all the things I tried were either too heavy or too complex (unreliable) or both
<Chrisn> qubit hinges?
<Art_Applewhite> It's hard to put it in words
<Art_Applewhite> Instead of square sides, make it with triangular side then add another set of triangles that fold down for the recovery phase
<Art_Applewhite> The gain in aerodynamic effiency is offset by a loss of stability, increased weight and a reduction in reliability.
<andy> i thought wik was probably refering to one that folds away for shipping/travelling?
<WiK> yeah, that... though one which unfolds in mid flight sounds very cool#
<Art_Applewhite> Oh, it's shaped like a box already. In fact the Priority Stealth (https://www.artapplewhite.com/free.html) is already a box.
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, cool but complex and my design tend to be simple and reliable.
<Art_Applewhite> My approach is to use the minimum amount of materials to acheive a safe flight.
<WiK> yeah, I guess weight needs to be kept at a minimum for aerobrake recovery
<Art_Applewhite> One of the consequences of this philosophy is to eliminate the parachute.
<Art_Applewhite> Weight in one of the main factors determing descent rate
<Art_Applewhite> The lower the weight the lower the descent rate.
<Art_Applewhite> In general, when I design a rocket using aerobrake recovery, I first consider the desired descent rate (20 to 30 fps)
<Art_Applewhite> Then I select the heaviest motor and determine it weight when spent.
<Art_Applewhite> Use a formula that takes into account the Coefficient of Drag (CD) of the airframe I can then determine the necessary frontal surface area.
<Art_Applewhite> Once the frontal surface area is known the other dimensions of the rocket can be determined and an approximate total weight can be found.
<Art_Applewhite> If that weight is still low enough not to exceed the desired descent rate the rocket can be flown.
<Art_Applewhite> Folks have asked me why I don't make an M powered flying saucer kit.
<Art_Applewhite> The reason is the descent rate is too high using the available motor casings and airframe materials.
<Chrisn> even CF?
<andy> it's interesting that you start with descent phase, rather than ascent phase, in the design process. I'd have thought most people would start from the thrust:drag ratio
<Art_Applewhite> I could use CF but I consider it too expensive and too difficult to use by the average builder.
<Art_Applewhite> Thrust:drag is useful if maximum altitude or speed is your goal but with most odd rockets these are a secondary consideration.
<Art_Applewhite> Once your free yourself for the "need of speed" and the "yearning for altitude" you open up a whole new world of exploration.
<andy> I find non-rocketeer spectators like the low and slow kits with the biggest motor that will fit
<Art_Applewhite> There are so many more possibilities when your only goal is safe, reliable recovery.
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, this seems to be the norm.
<andy> an E15 aerotech in the Qubit always has people asking about them
<WiK> the I540 in the 38mm Qubit at IRW was one of the more impressive flights of the week, I thought
<WiK> far too many 3/4FNC rockets in HPR, IMO
<Art_Applewhite> With the Qubit and its derivatives it is possible to use somewhat larger motors are possible.
<Art_Applewhite> 3FNCs have their place but people need to experiment more with airframes. I've just barely scratched the surface so far.
<Art_Applewhite> Urban sprawl is making it harder to find places to fly well designed 3FNCs so people are making them fatter and heavier.
<Art_Applewhite> just to keep from busting the waiver with a M motor.
<Art_Applewhite> A flying saucer is just the logical conclusion of making a fatter rocket.
<WiK> so are you working on anything new at the moment?
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, some smaller (free) rockets that are like 3FNCs but with a simplified recovery system.
<Art_Applewhite> Otherwise, I haven't had anything I consider ground breaking since I came out this the Helix and Double Helix.
<Art_Applewhite> I'm always open to new ideas.
<andy> multi-stage qubit? (or is there one already?)
<Art_Applewhite> I saw one done by a guy in Germany.
* Chrisn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
<Art_Applewhite> He put it on the modellrackeden forum
<andy> oh? not me, but I will take a look
<Art_Applewhite> The problem with 2 stage, high drag designs is they stop suddenly when the thrust stops.
<Art_Applewhite> This causes the second stage to tip over and fly somewhere between horizontal or downward once the motor starts.
<Art_Applewhite> No, not andy. A local guy and it was a couple of years ago.
* RandyT0001 ([email protected]) has joined #TheRocketryForum
<WiK> hey
<Art_Applewhite> Randy, Welcome! Any questions for the Saucer Man?
<RandyT0001> pass for now
<Art_Applewhite> Okay.
<Art_Applewhite> One other things about 2 stage saucers.
<Art_Applewhite> I have tried several ways of doing it.
<Art_Applewhite> I even tried a 18 mm CAD two stage Delta Flying Saucer.
andytherocketeer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2009
- Messages
- 151
- Reaction score
- 0
<Art_Applewhite> That's where you tape a C6-0 to the bottom of a C6-3 and shove it into a stock 18mm Delta.
<Art_Applewhite> It flew okay until the booster motor burned out but it tip over to horizontal before the sustainer could light.
<Art_Applewhite> I have seen videos of the FlisKit Frick-n-Frack (https://www.fliskits.com/products/01prod_fs.htm) and it seems to have this problem.
<Art_Applewhite> Sorry, the Frick-n-Frack link is here: https://www.fliskits.com/products/rocketkits/kit_detail/frick-n-frack.htm
<Art_Applewhite> I also tried a larger saucer with a smaller saucer on top so that the two together looked uniform.
<Art_Applewhite> The booster got a hole burned in it by the sustainer motor when it started. It also went off in a less than vertical direction.
* JAL3 (~JAL3@cpe-68-203-175-74.satx.res.rr.com) has joined #TheRocketryForum
<Art_Applewhite> John, Welcome
<andy> hey
<WiK> hey John
<JAL3> howdy
<Art_Applewhite> Any questions for the Saucer Man?
<JAL3> I want to here more about the Magness effect rocket Any progress
<Art_Applewhite> Not lately. To get the best effect, it needs to be fat and balanced
<JAL3> I'm real good at fat
<JAL3> Since Im in late and it seems quiet, do you have anything new on the horizon?
<Art_Applewhite> It is also difficult to translate from vertical flight to horizontal rotation.
<Art_Applewhite> Just some small (free) stuff in the works. Featherweight recovery and cardstock construction
* RandyT0001 has quit (Ping timeout)
<Art_Applewhite> Still working out the details.
<Art_Applewhite> Something alone the lines of the Six but with backslide-like recovery.
<JAL3> I still have that orange 13mm quibit you gave me at the first AR launch I attended. I still fly it too.
<JAL3> What do you mean by backslide?
<Art_Applewhite> Backslide recovery is based on the observation that long rockets tend to backslide, fly horizontally, tail first, before the recovery system deploys
<JAL3> Sp os yours intended to back all the way down?
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, or tumble but not come in ballistic
<JAL3> That's Stu's job.
<Art_Applewhite> Oh, Snap!
<JAL3> What is the largest diameter saucer you have built and flown?
<Art_Applewhite> 18 inches on a J90W
<JAL3> That's the one you sell; I was just wondering if there are any monsters you are hiding from us
<Art_Applewhite> I'm not that into HP so I leave the testing of bigger rocket and more powerful motors to my Beta testers
<JAL3> fair enough
<Art_Applewhite> I haven't flown the 54 mm Stealth but I have sold a few.
<Art_Applewhite> I even provided the materials and plans for a 75 mm M powered Stealth to a guy in Chicago
<JAL3> I'm working on a scratch saucer, a semi scale of the PEPP aeroshell. I sized it to use BT20 motor tubes...12 of them.
<JAL3> Now that its getting close and I realize that its almost 30 inches in diamter, I am wondering if I will have enough power.
<Art_Applewhite> Are all the motor tubes going to have motors in them?
<Art_Applewhite> I would say no.
<JAL3> I have a bunch of the long burn Quest C6s on the way. The plan is to light them all.
* hazegry (~[email protected]) has joined #therocketryforum
<Art_Applewhite> I doubt you can get them all to light without using a flash pan for ignition
<Art_Applewhite> Welcome hazegry.
<WiK> it's a shame quickmatch isn't more common over there
<JAL3> Plan B involes a bunch of the long burn Apogee Ds and making a lot of quickburst igniters.
<hazegry> hi art
<hazegry> hey wik
<WiK> perfect for igniting odd clusters like that
<WiK> hey haz
<JAL3> hi
<hazegry> hi jal
<Art_Applewhite> Haz, do you have a question for the Saucer Man?
<hazegry> no I am in here almost everynight
<hazegry> like your stuff though
<Art_Applewhite> Thank you.
<hazegry> yw
<Art_Applewhite> John, I haven't done the math but I don't think 20 C or long burn D motors will work in your PEPP aeroshell
<JAL3> I'm only going to have 12.
<Art_Applewhite> I've flown my 18 inch Delta on a J90 and it looped over under power toward the end of the flight
<Art_Applewhite> Even worse
<JAL3> I was only thinking in terms of scaling when I started this about a year ago.
<Art_Applewhite> A 30 inch saucer on 12 Cs is underpowered
<JAL3> Gordon Agnello turned the parts for me and I never really gave much thought to the shroud until I drew out the rest of it after the framework.
<Art_Applewhite> I understand, but folks often make the mistake of thinking as long as there enough power to get it off the rod and saucer can fly on anything.
<JAL3> Now its getting close to the finish line.
<Art_Applewhite> If a saucer isn't pushed hard it tips over.
<JAL3> I didn't want to go to plan C but that involves a balloon launch and RC gear.
* BlueAintHere has quit (Ping timeout)
<Art_Applewhite> That would be more to scale.
<JAL3> Like the prototype.
<Art_Applewhite> Exactly
<JAL3> I talked a little to Dave Hein about the electronics.
<Art_Applewhite> Would you use a parachute also
<JAL3> The PEPP was designed to test chute deployment for the Vikings. I laready have the chutes set up, a cluster of 4
<Art_Applewhite> It would have to be ejected backwards and be rated for supersonic flight on Mars.
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<JAL3> Further down the line I have the PEPP 2 on the drawing board. It would only have 8 motors but conceivably might work better because they are 24mm
<JAL3> That would give me possibly 8 Fs
<Art_Applewhite> That might work with something like a 20 inch or smaller shell
<JAL3> The scaling is the problem.
<Art_Applewhite> Some compromises must be made.
<JAL3> that's what my wife tells me.
<Art_Applewhite> SWMBO - She who must be obeyed
<JAL3> You didn't spell it right. SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED
<JAL3> I notice on your site the RR motors. Have you tried the Es?
<Art_Applewhite> No, not yet. I haven't done much flying lately.
<Art_Applewhite> The last launch I attended was yours.
<Art_Applewhite> Whenever that was.
<JAL3> That's been 4 or 5 months
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, it's been a while. I hope to make it to the December launch but no promises.
<JAL3> The december launch will be on the first Saturday instead of the 2nd.
<JAL3> I hope you can make it.
<Art_Applewhite> I saw that today and corrected my Launches page.
<JAL3> 8 has come and SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED beckons me, requesting and requiring my presence forthwith.
<JAL3> Thanks for participating.
<JAL3> I know I speak for all of TRF when I say that we very much value the manufacturer participation.
<Art_Applewhite> My pleasure and I hope to host a chat again soon.
* JAL3 has quit (Quit: Using The Rocketry Forum chat page.)
<Art_Applewhite> If there aren't anymore questions for the Saucer Man, I'll see about getting some supper.
<andy> no more from me
<WiK> thanks for doing this, and sorry about the lack of turnout this evening
* verb0ss has quit (Ping timeout)
<andy> thanks for taking the time to host the fireside chat
<WiK> maybe thanksgiving weekend isn't the best time for this sort of thing
<Art_Applewhite> Agreed, I look forward to doing it again.
<WiK> we'll look forward to having you back!
* Art_Applewhite is now known as logging_off
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<Art_Applewhite> It flew okay until the booster motor burned out but it tip over to horizontal before the sustainer could light.
<Art_Applewhite> I have seen videos of the FlisKit Frick-n-Frack (https://www.fliskits.com/products/01prod_fs.htm) and it seems to have this problem.
<Art_Applewhite> Sorry, the Frick-n-Frack link is here: https://www.fliskits.com/products/rocketkits/kit_detail/frick-n-frack.htm
<Art_Applewhite> I also tried a larger saucer with a smaller saucer on top so that the two together looked uniform.
<Art_Applewhite> The booster got a hole burned in it by the sustainer motor when it started. It also went off in a less than vertical direction.
* JAL3 (~JAL3@cpe-68-203-175-74.satx.res.rr.com) has joined #TheRocketryForum
<Art_Applewhite> John, Welcome
<andy> hey
<WiK> hey John
<JAL3> howdy
<Art_Applewhite> Any questions for the Saucer Man?
<JAL3> I want to here more about the Magness effect rocket Any progress
<Art_Applewhite> Not lately. To get the best effect, it needs to be fat and balanced
<JAL3> I'm real good at fat
<JAL3> Since Im in late and it seems quiet, do you have anything new on the horizon?
<Art_Applewhite> It is also difficult to translate from vertical flight to horizontal rotation.
<Art_Applewhite> Just some small (free) stuff in the works. Featherweight recovery and cardstock construction
* RandyT0001 has quit (Ping timeout)
<Art_Applewhite> Still working out the details.
<Art_Applewhite> Something alone the lines of the Six but with backslide-like recovery.
<JAL3> I still have that orange 13mm quibit you gave me at the first AR launch I attended. I still fly it too.
<JAL3> What do you mean by backslide?
<Art_Applewhite> Backslide recovery is based on the observation that long rockets tend to backslide, fly horizontally, tail first, before the recovery system deploys
<JAL3> Sp os yours intended to back all the way down?
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, or tumble but not come in ballistic
<JAL3> That's Stu's job.
<Art_Applewhite> Oh, Snap!
<JAL3> What is the largest diameter saucer you have built and flown?
<Art_Applewhite> 18 inches on a J90W
<JAL3> That's the one you sell; I was just wondering if there are any monsters you are hiding from us
<Art_Applewhite> I'm not that into HP so I leave the testing of bigger rocket and more powerful motors to my Beta testers
<JAL3> fair enough
<Art_Applewhite> I haven't flown the 54 mm Stealth but I have sold a few.
<Art_Applewhite> I even provided the materials and plans for a 75 mm M powered Stealth to a guy in Chicago
<JAL3> I'm working on a scratch saucer, a semi scale of the PEPP aeroshell. I sized it to use BT20 motor tubes...12 of them.
<JAL3> Now that its getting close and I realize that its almost 30 inches in diamter, I am wondering if I will have enough power.
<Art_Applewhite> Are all the motor tubes going to have motors in them?
<Art_Applewhite> I would say no.
<JAL3> I have a bunch of the long burn Quest C6s on the way. The plan is to light them all.
* hazegry (~[email protected]) has joined #therocketryforum
<Art_Applewhite> I doubt you can get them all to light without using a flash pan for ignition
<Art_Applewhite> Welcome hazegry.
<WiK> it's a shame quickmatch isn't more common over there
<JAL3> Plan B involes a bunch of the long burn Apogee Ds and making a lot of quickburst igniters.
<hazegry> hi art
<hazegry> hey wik
<WiK> perfect for igniting odd clusters like that
<WiK> hey haz
<JAL3> hi
<hazegry> hi jal
<Art_Applewhite> Haz, do you have a question for the Saucer Man?
<hazegry> no I am in here almost everynight
<hazegry> like your stuff though
<Art_Applewhite> Thank you.
<hazegry> yw
<Art_Applewhite> John, I haven't done the math but I don't think 20 C or long burn D motors will work in your PEPP aeroshell
<JAL3> I'm only going to have 12.
<Art_Applewhite> I've flown my 18 inch Delta on a J90 and it looped over under power toward the end of the flight
<Art_Applewhite> Even worse
<JAL3> I was only thinking in terms of scaling when I started this about a year ago.
<Art_Applewhite> A 30 inch saucer on 12 Cs is underpowered
<JAL3> Gordon Agnello turned the parts for me and I never really gave much thought to the shroud until I drew out the rest of it after the framework.
<Art_Applewhite> I understand, but folks often make the mistake of thinking as long as there enough power to get it off the rod and saucer can fly on anything.
<JAL3> Now its getting close to the finish line.
<Art_Applewhite> If a saucer isn't pushed hard it tips over.
<JAL3> I didn't want to go to plan C but that involves a balloon launch and RC gear.
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<Art_Applewhite> That would be more to scale.
<JAL3> Like the prototype.
<Art_Applewhite> Exactly
<JAL3> I talked a little to Dave Hein about the electronics.
<Art_Applewhite> Would you use a parachute also
<JAL3> The PEPP was designed to test chute deployment for the Vikings. I laready have the chutes set up, a cluster of 4
<Art_Applewhite> It would have to be ejected backwards and be rated for supersonic flight on Mars.
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<JAL3> Further down the line I have the PEPP 2 on the drawing board. It would only have 8 motors but conceivably might work better because they are 24mm
<JAL3> That would give me possibly 8 Fs
<Art_Applewhite> That might work with something like a 20 inch or smaller shell
<JAL3> The scaling is the problem.
<Art_Applewhite> Some compromises must be made.
<JAL3> that's what my wife tells me.
<Art_Applewhite> SWMBO - She who must be obeyed
<JAL3> You didn't spell it right. SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED
<JAL3> I notice on your site the RR motors. Have you tried the Es?
<Art_Applewhite> No, not yet. I haven't done much flying lately.
<Art_Applewhite> The last launch I attended was yours.
<Art_Applewhite> Whenever that was.
<JAL3> That's been 4 or 5 months
<Art_Applewhite> Yes, it's been a while. I hope to make it to the December launch but no promises.
<JAL3> The december launch will be on the first Saturday instead of the 2nd.
<JAL3> I hope you can make it.
<Art_Applewhite> I saw that today and corrected my Launches page.
<JAL3> 8 has come and SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED beckons me, requesting and requiring my presence forthwith.
<JAL3> Thanks for participating.
<JAL3> I know I speak for all of TRF when I say that we very much value the manufacturer participation.
<Art_Applewhite> My pleasure and I hope to host a chat again soon.
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<Art_Applewhite> If there aren't anymore questions for the Saucer Man, I'll see about getting some supper.
<andy> no more from me
<WiK> thanks for doing this, and sorry about the lack of turnout this evening
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<andy> thanks for taking the time to host the fireside chat
<WiK> maybe thanksgiving weekend isn't the best time for this sort of thing
<Art_Applewhite> Agreed, I look forward to doing it again.
<WiK> we'll look forward to having you back!
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