lr64
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Do you have to do anything special to get ignition of all the motors at exsctly the same time? Ate the igniters made that consistently?
Not Enough Thrust from BP?
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As mentioned in post #10, MJG BP starters are reliable, low voltage, low current electric matches.
https://electricmatch.com/rocketry/see/23/6/bp-rocket-starters
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I've bought little ematches from One Bad Hawk. The ones with the orange leads. I've got a seven-engine Fat Boy, and these are the only igniters that have lit all seven at once. You might be able to make your own. Careful motor prep helps, too. I use a small drill bit to make sure the grain is exposed and that nozzle material is out of the opening.
lr64
Well-Known Member
I did see that post, but it doesn't tell me if all the igniters go off identically, even if they do receive power at the same time because they're in parallel. Unless I missed something.
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They all fire instantly. Is that what you want to know?
lr64
Well-Known Member
Yes. Are they special igniters or do you just use lots of voltage?
Yes, they are special. No, they do not require more voltage.
Why doesn't Estes include cluster rockets in their PS II line? Three E motors, or two F motors, would not be in the high power range, and would not be underpowered. Or, a single E or F motor plus two or more 18 mm motors. Would be safer and more exciting than their current underpowered lineup. Plus, they would sell more motors.
lakeroadster
When in doubt... build hell-for-stout!
Makes perfect sense... and there's the answer.
Indeed, 3 x 24mm D12 or E12 in BT-70 (preferably) or BT-80, or 2 x 29mm E16 or F15 in BT-80 or 3" would indeed put up nice flights without pushing past the low power limit of 125g of propellant. (I've built and flown the former combo). They'd have to rethink retention though.
Big clusters might be too high on the IDIOT RISK FACTOR scale for an Estes kit.
Ignition, also, for more than two motors. The PS II launch controller has clips for two.
Somewhere - maybe in an old catalog - I've seen instructions from Estes for wiring the stock igniters for clusters, but that may not have been published anytime recently (and the leads may not be long enough for that to be easy with larger diameter motors; don't have any nearby to check).
Before they had the E12 motors or larger, the PS pro series used clusters.
Like 4x24mm in the PS Patriot
They are not ignitors, they are electric matches and they are very precise. Liked used in Pryo shows.
Except MJG makes some legal ones that don't require licenses.
They will fire on 1 volt even
"Ready to use 1ft Starters for your Estes or any black powder model rocket motors. Requires 1 per launch to ignite your Estes engine. Requires 1 volt or more to fire. In regards to clusters, these can be fired in series or parallel. The Estes E launch controller works great, as do our Alpha system. Standard are 3mm in diameter. They are great for replacing the match that comes with the smaller estes motors. DAP and Loctite make adhesive puttys that work great atholding the starters in the motors. "
No problem. A three motor cluster should be easily doable with the the PS II controller without extra clip whips.
One of my favorite rockets of late used a cluster of three C6 motors wired like Config. 3 above. It worked out great until one day I got wires crossed while loading it onto the pad and only one motor fired. Fortunately, the leads were tied down to the base of the pad, the other two ignitor plugs held, and the rocket only got part way up the rod. So no lawn dart landing.
Using the MJG BP starters prevents this.
To echo others, the MJG black powder starter / mini ematches are a cheat code for black powder clustering. I've burned hundreds of them in the past three years, and the only failure I've had was not the starter, it was my failure in not realizing I'd actually pulled one of them out of a motor. I now use poster putty to hold them in the nozzle, a trick I learned here on TRF that hasn't failed me either.
I was out of rocketry in that era, but I know it from catalogs. Some of those designs looked like fun. Revisiting my earlier comment . . .
. . . the original Pro Series clusters used engine hooks. I rarely use engine hooks so tend to forget about them, but there's nothing wrong with them if you're not planning to vary the length of motors used, and if they are of E-motor length, they can work with either C/D length or E length when used with Estes' orange cardboard adapter pieces. In D-motor length, they can restrict restrict the length of the motors uses in a 4x24mm cluster so that unwary buyers can't load up four E12s and exceed the low/mid-power propellant limit of 125g.
Nice find! Good to know they still publish info on clusters.
Initiator001
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Ah, one of my favorite subjects!
Here's a link to a history of the original Estes Pro Series:
https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=8736
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Ah, one of my favorite subjects!
Here's a link to a history of the original Estes Pro Series:
https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=8736
Thanks for helping me "Re-remembering" about that.
I recall seeing Pro Series in my hobby shop, but I was already buying LOC at better value mail order from Ron & Deb starting in 1988 and when they showed up at Danville Dare launches.
The only one that "almost" got me to buy it was the Terrier Sandhawk .
A friend bought the Pro Patriot at the store.
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is this the DAP you're referring to?
Attachments
Not sure what Art uses, but I've been using Scotch "Removable Mounting Putty" like this (not sure if what I have is the same size), commonly called poster putty. Works well - I've never had it fail - but I've occasionally had to restick the stuff multiple times as I manipulate wires of big clusters at the pad, so I've thought of looking for something a little stickier that will adhere to the surface of Estes clay nozzles better.
dpower
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"For secure placement, DAP and Loctite adhesive putties work great for holding the starters in the motors." - Quote from MJG website.
I've tried Loctite "Fun-Tak" poster putty a few times. Yesterday, on a 3 motor x 2-stage cluster, and Estes Sonic Igniters, the putty was not ejected with all 3 igniters, causing poor thrust, and barely making it off the rod. Fortunately, the upper stage lit all 3 motors while it was still vertical. I used a fairly small amount of the putty, barely the diameter of the nozzle, but it sticks very well. Perhaps there's a specific method to make this stuff work, but I'll go back to bits of wadding and masking tape, at least for non-MJG starters. It might work better with MJG, since they take up more nozzle volume, reducing surface area for the putty to adhere.
I've tried Loctite "Fun-Tak" poster putty a few times. Yesterday, on a 3 motor x 2-stage cluster, and Estes Sonic Igniters, the putty was not ejected with all 3 igniters, causing poor thrust, and barely making it off the rod. Fortunately, the upper stage lit all 3 motors while it was still vertical. I used a fairly small amount of the putty, barely the diameter of the nozzle, but it sticks very well. Perhaps there's a specific method to make this stuff work, but I'll go back to bits of wadding and masking tape, at least for non-MJG starters. It might work better with MJG, since they take up more nozzle volume, reducing surface area for the putty to adhere.
@electricmatch DO NOT USE LOCTITE!
I got some Loctite after using up my supply of Gorilla and DAP. The Loctite is stickier and leaves some in the nozzle. It caused some wonky launches for me until I figured out what was going on. The DAP and Gorilla brand adhesive putty worked fine.
View attachment Offset Thrust.mp4
View attachment Unintended thrust vectoring..m4v
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dpower
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Ah, so it isn't just me! Maybe I'll try once more with DAP or Gorilla.
Rocketjunkie
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I have a scaled down LOC Ultimate. 7 BT-5 motor mounts in a BT-60 for when I was making 13 mm motors. Lost it on 3 D40-10 motors, building another. It also would fly on 7 A3-4Ts.
D40 with parts From top, case, liner, closures, nozzle, o-rings, 4 1" grains and a 3/4" solid delay grain (13 sec). Complete motor 5-5/8" long, 20 N-s. C20s were 3-5/8" long.
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