Noris - Bachem Ba349 Natter - Build Thread/Review

[NJRick]

she looks fantastic Astro!!! AWESOME job!!!!

 

[adrian]

Onwards with the pictures taken this very morning just for Cookie

Tough luck, Cookie - I looked at the pictures as well. Very nice work as usual!

Bearing in mind that the original kit was intended to fly on the underpowered D7, you should have plenty of power with a real D12. If you do need more power, perhaps those boosters should not just be for decoration...

I remember that Airfix F4 - the red flashes looked pretty but were a pain to put on! I think at least one of mine, probably both, ended up going on in two or more pieces. Meanwhile, you might like a look at the AIM-7 Sparrow, the F4's main armament.

And based partly on your recommendation, I now have R. V. Jones' book.

 

[Daddyisabar]

My CG is approximately a pinky finger behind the leading edge and it is nice and stable, The last flight on Thursday at NARAM was straight up in a very slight breeze on a D12 3. The CG needs to be forward of the mid point on the wing as far as possible. I would load her up, put her on a scale and put in nose weight up to the recommended lift off weight for the D12 3, which is something like 15 oz. off the top of my head. If the CG is still too far back you can go a bit over weight and still be OK. The nose cones on these rockets planes are surprisingly dense so I bring them down on their own chute. Give an experienced 3FNC flyer the loaded body in one hand and then give them the nose cone in the other. If they don't immediately laugh you might need more nose weight. All in all you should be OK. If it just doesn't work there are always 24mm composite reloads which are much more efficient and powerful with out much more weight, but being in the UK you might not have the advantage of just relying on more power.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Tons of weight it is then Time to go and peel some lead flashing off a church roof and fulfill the inner gypsy in me

Adrian you will like the book I am sure - the first part is a bit dull but it does get better and it a great insight into the start of the electronic warfare age and I would say very useful to understand some of the decisions made in WW2 regarding the air war over Germany.

I would rate a few books on that subject;

Bomber Boys by Patrick Bishop is good for its insights into crew life, loss rates and being at the sharp end of the air war.
Last Year of the Luftwaffe by Alfred Price is immensely useful in understanding the issues faced by the Luftwaffe late on in the war, the complex issues surrounding projects like the Me262 and just why it never really delivered.
Hitlers Commanders by James Lucas is also a very useful primer on the issues of the Luftwaffe at the higher levels of command. Well worth a read for anyone with an interest in WW2 history.

Sorry I digressed a bit there

And yes I did think about having the boosters further back and ramming them with 13mm motors It would make for a spectacular lift off

Next up some head on shots as requested

 

[Astro-Baby]

Please post some pictures from the front! You know, from the perspective of the tailgunners of B17s, B24s and Lancasters

Well it would only be unlucky tailgunners in B17s and probably upper gunners as the flight profile was to dive down on the target. The RAF only flew at night so would most likley have been immune to a Natter, Lichtenstien 2 equipped nightfighters were the big killer for the RAF.

But here ya go - some nose on pics though I doubt in fact you would have had much of a view what with these things hitting 500mph and firing a ripple burst of rockets before diving like mad.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Just a few thoughts on this - I will be carrying on with the build thread a little bit further as there are some things I want to do yet.

Its a tough one to build. Daddyisabar wasnt wrong when he said this one may make you pull your hair out. It didn't for me but I have endless patience (almost). It needs a lot of thinking and tring to rush this leads to problems. At every stage you need to be thinking two to three steps ahead, playing with the parts and trying to see what the issues may be later on. You need to do a lot of marking up, test fitting and sanding, filling and sanding again to get it to look good.

Getting alignment on all parts, wings, tailplane and boosters is much harder than it seems - if you look at mine nose on with a sharp eye one wing is slightly lower than the other and the body has a slight twist. These are consequences of the imperfect centreing rings/formers and if I were building this again I would make these up from scratch and be VERY precise about it too.

All credit to Noris though for making such a unique kit which might be even tougher to scratch build, the plastic mouldings are slightly wrong in that the nose profile around the canopy is not right and the tail has a round exit where it should be oval but I understand a manufacturer has to make compromises on a flying kit - this is absolutelynot a scale model - but it does look a bit sexy for sure.

Its been a challenging and demanding build but for me enjoyable one but I would most definitely concur with dadyisabars comments that this is truly a builders kit - it aint Estes or even TLP and most definitely not Semroc. It needs a lot of input from the builder. I would put it down as at least as tough as a scratch build. My own scratch built FireLily F25 was a piece of cake by comparison with this 'kit'.

If you just slapped it together its probably a bit easier but my bet is it would look awful - take your time, enjoy the build, have a cup of tea/coffeee/whisky/brandy/schnapps/vodka when it gets too stressful and have a smoke/sex/dose of lithium and by the end of it you should get a decent enough kit. This is only my 12th build, my skills are only average and you can see the result of a patient and considered building process in the pics - whats more I still have hair, my thumb still looks like a thumb and I do have a pretty looking rocket at the end of it and one thats a bit different.

I am almost tempted to buy the Noris 'Wasserfall' that a dealer near me has It would kind of make my collection of German WW2 surface to air missiles almost complete

 

[Leo]

I can't wait for the flight report

 

[Daddyisabar]

I think you may be a bit modest on the average skills part, just look at the results. Scratch building a Rheindochter and Fire Lily, then jumping right in to a Noris Natter is not typical for the average builder of a dozen rockets.

If anything a slight twist in the body will result in a slight roll on the way up. Yours is straighter than mine. Maybe put in a little parachute man for extra mission points. Don't be surprised if you get a wing root crack after landing. Have some CA ready for a slight field repair if you are flying multiple times.

 

[mrichhcirm]

Thanks for the head-on shots...I picture its pilot screaming in terror the entire flight. I'm sure I would

 

[Astro-Baby]

Thanks for the head-on shots...I picture its pilot screaming in terror the entire flight. I'm sure I would

I'd be filling my pants with terror on the way up and filling them with relief on the way down I would think

I'll post some more once I have the noseweight sorted out. Clearly modelling clay isn't going to be a workable solution as I need to get as much weight as far forward as possible which means lead shot to minimise overall weight so I have to go buy some lead shot to get this little tike to fly.
The modelling clay solution just takes up too much space which leads to even more weight.

Thats probably why the Noris Natter has such a long pointy nose - a short stubby one like the real thing wouldn't allow enough weight. I should have left the wings off till later on then I could have cheated by moving the wings backwards

 

[NJRick]

these pictures are extremely cool!! beautiful work Astro!!!

Well it would only be unlucky tailgunners in B17s and probably upper gunners as the flight profile was to dive down on the target. The RAF only flew at night so would most likley have been immune to a Natter, Lichtenstien 2 equipped nightfighters were the big killer for the RAF.

But here ya go - some nose on pics though I doubt in fact you would have had much of a view what with these things hitting 500mph and firing a ripple burst of rockets before diving like mad.

 

[Cookie the Dog's Owner]

... Clearly modelling clay isn't going to be a workable solution as I need to get as much weight as far forward as possible which means lead shot to minimise overall weight so I have to go buy some lead shot to get this little tike to fly....

Recommend you get the smallest diameter shot you can. I use #9 bird shot--really small stuff--to weight model railroad cars because upi can pour it into funny-shaped spaces like the discharge chutes on a PS-2 grain hopper and get the weight down low where you need it.

 

[adrian]

Are you going to paint a fake nose? Gloss black or very dark blue, or gunmetal, could work.

My own somewhat cruder model is based on the Heller 1/72 kit and even less to scale because the nose is too narrow and I never got round to building the boosters. Even so, I got the CG where it needed to be by using plasticene. The one good thing that can be said about the model is that it's lead-free.

Wasserfall should be a relatively easy scratch-build compared to the Feuerlilie F25, never mind the likes of Rheintochter. You don't need to subject yourself to another Noris kit - in fact, you should have little trouble scratch-building something better than the Noris kit! If you have to start with a kit, get someone's V-2, the Wasserfall being basically a scaled down version with different fins.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Adrian - no I am not going to fake the nose. I thought about it and decided to leave well alone, that may change if the nose gets a ding on a rough landing I did consider doing it with a glossy black but changed my mind.

A good glass substitute is a base coat of silver followed up by one of Tamiyas translucents in dark blue OR a very high gloss Royal Blue (showing my experience there at bashing out Warhammer figures for my sons when they were too young to make the wretched things themselves.

Problem with V2s to scratch it seems to me is the boat tail and the very long ogive noses. In any event I have to take a break from building now - no space and exhausted. Until something blows up or flys into a tree I cant really build anymore. The fun for me is really the build - after one flight to prove the rocket I am pretty indifferent to them.

 

[burkefj]

I did this to make an A4B by taking one of dml's V2 kits and modifying the fins and adding styrene wings....it was heavy but very sturdy and flew well on E-18's.....

Frank




in fact, you should have little trouble scratch-building something better than the Noris kit! If you have to start with a kit, get someone's V-2, the Wasserfall being basically a scaled down version with different fins.[/QUOTE]

 

[Cl(VII)]

This was a very well done build, and thanks for documenting it so thoroughly. I've been following along quietly enjoying, but wanted to make sure to jump in with some applause. :clap:

 

[Astro-Baby]

And here are the final few pics/procedures in building this one.......

The noseweight was a headache. I tried with plasticine, modelling clay etc but it was very bulky and to get enough noseweight in seemed like hard work - the more weight I put in the further backwards its started to creep as the noseweight itself started to have to go backwards thanks to its bulk. I gave up at a tad under 90 grams and decided to do something different.

I was at first going to melt down a load of old lead strips I have and create a moulded nose cone using the lost wax method. I thought it would be fun, have used it before and something to entertain my youngest son but it seems like a lot of aggravation and after the first attempt failed when the wax positive broke up I decided to cut a corner and get some lead shot. Ordered some off a company on e-bay and lo and behold within a day a packet of lead shot in tiny sizes arrived.

This was wrapped in a bag and stuffed in the nose for trials and determined that 125gram would be needed to bring the CG about level with the leading edge of the wing. So I poured the lead balls in and added some epoxy to glue them together and stop wildfowl eating them in event of disaster.
Note: Wildfowl will eat lead shot thinking it to be pebbles which they need for their digestion, unfortunately lead being toxic its not good for them and although I am happy to use lead for stuff I try and be responsible about the environment.

Anyway the epoxy was mixed in and the nosecone put upright by being wrapped in some paper towel and put into a glass. The whole lot was then left in a pan of cold water to keep the temperature down. I was a bit worried that the catalytic reaction from the epoxy might do harm to the plastic nose cone. In the event it never got that hot as the lead acted as a moderator. When I did this with Rheintochter and a few other projects the epoxy heated up to REALLY high temperature so it was a sensible precaution.

Heres a pic of the whole thing being cooled down plus one of the almost set epoxy/lead shot mix.


ps - if you want to know what the lost wax method is - you make a positive of what you want - ie a wax model of what the final product would be. At the top or its narrowest end you put a small metal tube. Then you coat it in plaster of paris leaving a hole to pur into at the opposite end of the metal tube you put in. Wait for the plaster to dry and then you pour molten metal (usually bronze but it will work with lead just as well) into the hole you left open (usually the base of the object). The hot metal melts the wax which which then come out of the metal tube you put in and when you see metal coming out of the tube you know the mould is full of hot lead or bronze. Wait for it to cool and then break open the plaster and if all has gone well you now have a moulded piece of metal. Statues in antiquity were made this way.

 

[Astro-Baby]

The total weight in the nose after all this was actually slightly higher than planned at 150 grams. THe Natter was still ok for max lift off weight but I was quite surprised by how heavy the epoxy actually was when added to the mix.

The next thing was to make a basswood bulkhead out of quite thick (3/8") basswood for the parachute retaining ring. This was cut out and sanded to a good profile for its shoulders to mate with the nosecone, small slots cut out to accommodate the seam in the nosecone and a retaining ring screwed and epoxied in. The whole assembly hardened with some CA and then epoxied to the interior of the nose cone.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Finally the parachute(s)..........

I was originally minded to go with a single chute for this but its huge overall launch weight of 300gm meant a biggish chute which I don't have on hand. I was also a bit concerned about touchdown when the nose weights almost 150gm which would mean if it came down on the main body (which interestingly also weighs in at 150gm) it might smash fins. So I decided to use the two supplied parachutes with the kit which are each big enough for half the kit. I don't mind a slightly higher rate of descent as I launch off soft grass so a spill hole was cut in each one.

I didn't bother with the Noris plastic paper tabs but went with some hole reinforcers I have used before which stick down hard and are made of some kind of tough plastic for the shrouds.

The Noris chutes are round rather than the ubiquitous Estes hexagons and the Noris chutes have 8 shroud lines a piece. Normally I hate making chutes up as its so fiddly and dull and usually buy mine ready made but I sat down and gritted my teeth and they came out ok. Each chute is attached to a swivel and then on to a kevlar/nylon shock cord.

Prior to fitting the chutes to the bird each interior was given a wash with paint to make it look nicer inside - I thought the whole thing has been such a build I might as well go the extra mile

The all up weight for this is 300 grams so it should be ok. Rheintochter had an all up of 325 grams and worked ok, although not a high altitude bird by any means. Its weird to handle this now its complete. The nose seems so much heavier with all of that lead in its nose but in fact the scales show the two halves to be almost identical.

The chutes actually pack into the body easily side by side which I was quite surprised about as the recovery bay is quite small.

The observant will notice that despite my work on the nosecone it still needed some masking tape to get a good tight fit with the body. Albeit a lot less than might otherwise have been needed and at least the nosecone doesn't show any inclination to push back into the main tube.

And thats it - done at last, all I need now is clear weather for a launch.


Thanks to everyone who has contributed - I am sorry if I haven't replied to each comment but I am always a bit busy these days. I do read all of the comments but sometimes I prefer not to reply so the thread doesn't get derailed from the build which I always think of as a handy reference for anyone ever building one of these rockets.

Of course when we launch I will put up a report on the thread and even a video of it if we get that lucky.

Thanks for all who have read,
Hail to the writer,
Hail to the reader,
Joy to those who have understood,
Delight to those who have followed.

Mel

 

[Daddyisabar]

Great job. I always pack the nose cone chute behind the body's chute so as to pull the body's chute out. A little dog barf sandwich for wadding and not a speck of damage to the stock Noris chutes.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Yesterday I got to fly the Natter off for the first time. I will get some videos up later on but here's the report.


All flights conducted with Estes D12-3 engines. Weather fine with a slight breeze that could gust up at times. Major problems with an Estes launch controller required me to rejig it in the field and assemble a botched up launch controller using bits of the Estes plus some pliers. Took two of us to hold it together for launching

Flight 1
Went off the pad quite fast, rolled to orientate herself to correct flight attitude (ie cockpit up and slightly angled climb out after launch) in slo-mo it looks almost real weathercocked into the wind at close to the end of its main burn and flew almost horizontal for a time until the ejection charge fired. Altitude estimate about 250' to 300'. Chutes were packed with the nose cone chute to the rear of the main body chute and on ejection the chutes tangled, one chute opened the other not. The Natter had a fairly fast descent as a result into long grass. No damage and prepped for second flight.

Flight 2
Shot off the pad and flew horizontal almost immediately, made quite some distance both vertically and horizontally, flew right over some trees and I was sure we would lose her. On ejection the chutes deployed and thankfully both opened, this time they were packed side by side as in one of the pics in this thread. A strong breeze blew up and wafted the Natter clear of the trees. Safe landing in long grass but inspection showed both chutes as having scorching damage and the nose cone chute had ripped two of its shroud lines from the chute. Nose cone chute written off. Estimated height maybe 200 to 250 feet. Unfortunately we didnt get this flight on camera. It was filmed only from a pad cam behind the bird and she is out of shot almost straight away.

Flight 3
Both parts were hooked to a single chute. This would be undersized but given the soft long grass I was sure we would be ok. Left the pad fast, weathercocked into the wind at the edge of its trajectory, glided for a bit almost horizontally prior to ejection. At ejection the chute fouled and she took a tumbling descent into the grass from about 250'. Both rear stabilisers damaged and one rocket nozzle almost sheared off. Returned to base for repair.

So on the whole she flies ok but I have to resolve the recovery gear. Given the very short body tube and the massive ejection blast from a D12 I think she might need a Nomex blanket in there. The final flight ejection charge incinerated the chute quite badly despite a lot of wadding paper.

Also given the chutes tangling issue I am minded to go with a single chute for future flights. I did wonder if a dual deploy was sensible given the small amount of space in the recovery bay.

Noseweight in this was 125gram which makes the whole nose assembly almost 150gram in weight. Quite surprising how heavy she is really for such a small rocket and also makes you realise how much bang there is in a D12.

 

[Astro-Baby]

And here's the rough video of the 1st 3 flights.

[video=youtube_share;GOvgamS-OGE]https://youtu.be/GOvgamS-OGE[/video]

 

[Cl(VII)]

Very nice. Sorry about the damage, but a pretty good flier considering.

 

[mrichhcirm]

Thanks for the video...I had to skip my club launch today and am grateful for the vicarious thrills

 

[NJRick]

Astro...she flies great! awesome video!

 

[Daddyisabar]

Wow! Great first flight. Flying this naughty little Nazi is quite a task! You never quite know what to expect. It does like to go airplane and luckily on your second flight it was nose up. On the chutes I have used the not so good technique of wrapping the shroud lines around the chutes which delays deployment for an instant and they have not tangled. Maybe it is the dry mile high air, maybe it is talc, maybe it is luck. I use float paper and dog barf and have not yet burned the chutes. One piece of float paper down the motor mount, loosely packed dog barf in the tube and just a bit on top of top centering ring, another flat piece of float paper on top of that for a dog barf sandwich that will act as a piston and protect the plastic chutes even on a fast horizontal deployment.

Longer rod? But my good second flight was off a standard length rod. Only launch in calm conditions? But my good second flight had just a little wind. Your second flight was somewhat like my first flight, not so good but it survived. Just superglue it up and fly again in an attempt to tame this shrew. It is small, it is dense and just a bit nasty. But that is par for the course for any hardened Noris flyer.

Sometimes I am like Winnie the Pooh on assessing the not so good flights. Oh bother, just think think think. It must have been the Hefalumps and Woozels! Then I go ask Christopher Robin rocket scientist and after that explanation I am again back to the Hefalumps and Woozels theory.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Thanks Guys...

CI - I dont worry about damage after a flight. For me the fun is the build. I am pretty ambivalent once I know it flies and can shrug off losses - its part of the game for me. Even when my Rheintochter flew into a tree after only four flights I was pretty even tempered and just sighed deeply and set about planning the second version

mrrich - glad to be of service

NJ - On the firts video you can see it roll 'shuttle like' into its flight position which is pretty cool I think.

Daddy - I did wrap the shrouds and shock cord - maybe it was wrapped a bit too tight but the failed deployment showed the shrouds just knotted up so I think it was just bad luck. Like you I throw it together - if it flies it flies - if it dont it dont and I pick up the bits and try again

I am working on a much longer video which features Rheintochter, Fire Lily F25 and the Natter.

 

[Cookie the Dog's Owner]

Whatever problems you had, it still flew better than the prototype!

 

[NJRick]

its very cool Astro!!!

Thanks Guys...

CI - I dont worry about damage after a flight. For me the fun is the build. I am pretty ambivalent once I know it flies and can shrug off losses - its part of the game for me. Even when my Rheintochter flew into a tree after only four flights I was pretty even tempered and just sighed deeply and set about planning the second version

mrrich - glad to be of service

NJ - On the firts video you can see it roll 'shuttle like' into its flight position which is pretty cool I think.

Daddy - I did wrap the shrouds and shock cord - maybe it was wrapped a bit too tight but the failed deployment showed the shrouds just knotted up so I think it was just bad luck. Like you I throw it together - if it flies it flies - if it dont it dont and I pick up the bits and try again

I am working on a much longer video which features Rheintochter, Fire Lily F25 and the Natter.

 

[Major Tom]

Very cool build. Fun following!