NOOB questions from a first timer

[Huxter]

LDRS39A will be the first major event I've been too. I will fly mostly LPR kits. Can I ask some questions?

1) Will the RSO ask me for the center of pressure on my LPR rockets?

2) I would like to fly my Deuce's Wild, but have never launched a cluster before. Will the range be setup to handle clusters?

3) What's involved in a drag race? Any official numbers kept (ie how high) or just for visual candy!

Thank you

 

[Antares JS]

1. It's most likely that the RSO will only ask you to show your CG/CP on an "out there" kind of design. If you only have kits then most likely you will not be asked. That said, knowing the CG and CP of your rockets doesn't hurt at all.

2. Ranges only rarely at best have split leads that allow hooking up directly to multiple igniters.

To fly a cluster with Estes motors, I usually take some extra wire and attach it to my Estes igniter leads with a twist and some masking tape. This extra wire acts as an extension to allow you to twist the wires from each igniter together so that you can clip to a normal two-lead controller. (To clarify: twist one wire from each igniter together, then twist the other wire from each igniter together.) If you do this, then you don't need to have multiple sets of clips on your ignition system, and all you need is enough juice in your controller to fire all the igniters, which LDRS will definitely have.

 

[neil_w]

As I recall, on the stock Deuces Wild the motors are close enough that you can twist the starter leads together without any extra wire. Once you've done that, just hook it normally and go.

 

[prfesser]

LDRS39A will be the first major event I've been too. I will fly mostly LPR kits. Can I ask some questions?

1) Will the RSO ask me for the center of pressure on my LPR rockets?

Some RSOs will, others won't. Best to be prepared. A sticker that shows Cp on each rocket is a good idea. The symbol for Cp is a circle with a large dot in the center

It can be found in the Wingdings font. Size it for the size of the rocket(s), print on label paper.

OpenRocket will show Cp. The web has OR files for a lot of kit rockets. If an OR file isn't available, the only parts that need to be input in order to find Cp are the externals: nose cone/transitions, body tube(s), and fins.

See you in 55 days!

Best -- Terry

 

[Huxter]

Thank you all! I'm pumped to get out on the flats! I will try to launch my Deuce's Wild before hand and see if I can twist the wires together.

I do have decal paper to print the CP symbols. I'll look for some pre-made OR files to find the CP. IE for my V2, Big Daddy...

 

[troj]

You can also always just put a dot where the CP is with a Sharpie, then if asked, point out the mark. I've RSOd a lot of rockets that have a CP dot done with a Sharpie.

 

[boatgeek]

I sometimes put a change in paint color at the CP. That gives you a permanent reference without adding something new. The other approaches all work too.

 

[Dugway]

Will the range be setup to handle clusters?

I will have my Cluster Box available at LDRS 39 as well, just ask if you want to borrow it!

 

[jrap330]

You can also always just put a dot where the CP is with a Sharpie, then if asked, point out the mark. I've RSOd a lot of rockets that have a CP dot done with a Sharpie.

yeah, nice and simple.. concur

 

[Huxter]

Can I ask what the procedure is for getting your rocket inspected by the RSO - IE do I load up the engine and igniter before I see the RSO? Pretty much all ready for flight?

 

[troj]

Can I ask what the procedure is for getting your rocket inspected by the RSO - IE do I load up the engine and igniter before I see the RSO? Pretty much all ready for flight?

You should not have an igniter installed when you take a rocket to RSO. If you have electronics, they should be off. If you have ejection charges connected to an altimeter, let the RSO know that, so that they're aware.

Other than that, it should be ready for flight.

 

[Dugway]

LPR, definitely have all the engines and igniters installed before heading to the RSO. Especially in clusters, it's vitally important to have the igniters securely installed. I always use aluminum tape for this. For G+ motors, load up the engine and tape the igniter to the side of the rocket during motor prep back at your table to make it impossible to forget to take it with you. Otherwise you will.

 

[Huxter]

Thanks Dugway for the advise and Cluster box offer! Kinda conflicting on the igniter installed question tho? Kevin is coming to Utah, and I do not want to piss him off! I won't put an igniter in until the RSO says to.

I hope to meet you all on the flats!

 

[heada]

Thanks Dugway for the advise and Cluster box offer! Kinda conflicting on the igniter installed question tho? Kevin is coming to Utah, and I do not want to piss him off! I won't put an igniter in until the RSO says to.

I hope to meet you all on the flats!

Officially you should not install the igniter until the rocket is on the pad and facing a safe direction. There are some clubs that allow this to be bent for cases where it'd take too long to install the igniter at the pad.

Your default should be to wait until the pad but if you want to bend that, just check with the RSO before you bring it up for check-in. Some might be flexible in some cases and better to ask permission than forgiveness in this case.

 

[Antares JS]

Kinda conflicting on the igniter installed question tho?

Different clubs sometimes have slightly different rules. USUALLY having the igniter installed at the RSO table is okay if it's an Estes BP motor or a tiny reloadable motor whose igniter doesn't fit through the nozzle and has to be installed during assembly.

Leave the igniters OUT in any other situation. It's NEVER acceptable to have the igniter installed in a high power rocket at the RSO table.

That said, I believe Dugway is from the club hosting LDRS so his advice is probably the most accurate.

 

[Dugway]

It's actually very simple.

Low power motors (up to G) fly under the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code. There is no mention of igniters, other than using an electrical launch system. In fact, the Estes instructions tell you to install the igniter before putting the motor in the rocket. This would apply even more to clusters. I can't imagine trying to get even one of those plastic plugs installed on the pad without ripping the lug off the rocket, are there clubs that actually require that???

High power motors (H+) fly under the Tripoli High Power Safety Code. The Tripoli RSO guidelines state:

At all times prior to a safe firing position on the rod, rail, tower, or other suitable ground support facility, the igniter shall not be inside the motor, and all ejection charge related electronics must be off!

Exception: Igniters used in the initiation of upper stages and those of complex clusters may be
inserted early but must be shunted to avoid accidental ignition.

I'm not saying that clubs can't make their own rules, I know they do, but I've launched composite clusters from Argonia to BALLS and never been questioned when I've brought my Cluster Ducks (original 24mm+6x18mm, and upscale 29mm+6x24mm) to the RSO with all the igniters installed and ready to launch.

Finally, back to the original poster. He's asking about a 2x18mm cluster. Is there a club in the world that wouldn't expect the igniters to be installed before bringing it to the RSO???

 

[DeltaVee]

High power motors (H+) fly under the Tripoli High Power Safety Code. The Tripoli RSO guidelines state:

At all times prior to a safe firing position on the rod, rail, tower, or other suitable ground support facility, the igniter shall not be inside the motor, and all ejection charge related electronics must be off!

In terms of the "ejection charge electronics" being off... is it sufficient to have a remove- before- flight pin in place (say, of the type suggested by PerfectFlite? Or should you do something like disconnecting the battery?
I'm not going...
I'm just curious...

 

[kuririn]

I will try to launch my Deuce's Wild before hand and see if I can twist the wires together.

Yes, it can be done. Then you will not need a clip whip, just your regular controller.

 

[kenstarr]

Huxter, we'll be glad to have you out there! I've never been to an LDRS and I've missed Hellfire for the last 3 years.

 

[Huxter]

Thanks kuririn and kenstarr! I'm about all ready to go now! We have 3 days of record high temps starting tomorrow in Utah!

Go Jazz!

 

[Huxter]

Some of my biggest engines. I'm ready! If just the JLA3 would become available!!

 

[Jmhepworth]

You may want to buy some APCP motors and launch it a second time with double the impulse. At least 3 vendors will be happy to sell you the motors on site. Cris’ Rocket Supplies, Wildman, and our local vendor, Das Rockets, will all be there.

 

[Jmhepworth]

We will have the Volunteer descriptions up on the website soon. I just reviewed them with respect to installing igniters before going to the flight safety review. The only limitation is for high power motors. It’s fine to pre-install an igniter in a low- or mid-power motor. I usually shunt them in a mid-power motor by twisting the leads together. That’s probably not feasible with clustering.

 

[Huxter]

Thanks for checking on that Joe!

You may want to buy some APCP motors and launch it a second time with double the impulse.

THAT is some food for thought! People says to bring more money than you think - just for things like this!

 

[Huxter]

Thanks to Hard work from Russ at Flightsketch - I have a FS Mini on the way! Whoot! Whoot! Am looking forward to testing my Boosted Bertha on many different engine combos and seeing the results!

Another question please: Does anyone know what the launch cadence will be for the LPR pads Thur and Fri? I would like to launch 6 + rockets w different engines to compare altitudes. I would like to start as early as possible - 7 am. Do you think I will be able to launch multiple rockets per half hour?? Will the walks to get the rocket be the longest part!? Just wondering what a realistic expectation I should have? Thank you.

 

[aerostadt]

Ordinarily, if this was Hellfire on the Salt Flats, I would say your best bet for rapid turn-around on the LPR pads would be on Thursday. This being a national LDRS meet, I think things would be a lot busier. I would still think that the best LPR turn-around will be early on Thursday. I am not familiar with LDRS on Sunday, so I don't know if there will be a slow-down then.

 

[Jmhepworth]

We will have 16 low power pads that can be loaded and launched independently from high power pads. I don’t anticipate that you will have difficulty getting your launches in, especially if you start at 7:00 on Thursday morning. As you know, it takes a while to prep a high power rocket so that period between 7 and 9 is likely to be slower than from 9:00 on.

 

[OzHybrid]

if a launch is under Tripoli Rules, the entire site is under those rules for insurance purposes. You cannot mix NAR and Tripoli rules on a mix and match basis on the same day in any practical way.
If it is a Tripoli sanctioned event the insurance covers all rocket types and therefore Tripoli rules apply. Tripoli Safe Launch Practices specify that in a high power motor igniters must only be installed at the launch pad. So LPR and MPR motors are not specifically prohibited from having igniters fitted. Check with the RSO. The RSO can refuse anything they are not happy with. Make the RSO happy........
Good luck with the flight.

Www.Tripoli.org/insuranceFAQ

 

[Huxter]

We will have 16 low power pads that can be loaded and launched independently from high power pads.

That's some good news there! That will make things go faster on the LPR pads!

Make the RSO happy........

Much like keep the health inspector happy... got it!

Thank you all!

 

[aerostadt]

I would expect that Friday and Saturday will be the busiest days. Of course, there will be a Range Left and a Range Right. While one range is loading the other range will be launching. Keep in mind that on a busy day all the pads will be loaded and it will take time to launch everything. There will be rocketeers coming from all over the whole country to launch. The National Sport Launch this past Memorial day had a similar Range Left and Range Right set-up. On one of their busy days I overslept and I got there a little bit late in the morning. I set up my G-powered rocket glider on a HPR pad at about 10 AM. I noticed from the time I set up my rocket to when I retrieved my rocket and got back to my bench ready to take out my next rocket, a whole hour had passed. So, I would say don't be surprised if your whole rocket cycle time is at least one hour on a busy day. Of course, the LPR pads are closer and the recovery walk probably won't be as long, but everyone still has to wait for the whole Left or Right range to be launched. Definitely, we all want to avoid misfires!