NFPA vs. mass launches

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Thanks for that perspective John. I didn't even think of that.

I think this debate boils down to two camps. One seeks knowledge and wants to learn and challenge themselves, and takes risks after consideration and tries to keep them as low as possible. The other is in this for kicks and is willing to increase risk to others substantially, and thinks "but it's fun" justifys that risk.

I think pretty much everyone wants to learn and challenge themselves. I wouldn't put people into two camps--I'd say it's a spectrum of different tolerances for risk. On one end, you have NASA, doing detailed risk analyses and getting a launch off every couple of years. In the middle, you have SpaceX, doing lots of cool launches, but blowing up one every so often. On the other end, you have the "hold my beer and watch this" crowd that would like to see a spectacular failure just as much (or more) than a success. I do think moderation is called for, both in the crazy stuff you want to do, and the number of rules to keep it safe.

Also, I think risk analysis has a bad name in general, sounding a lot like a convention of accountants. Risk analysis for a mass launch could be done in a few hours if you really wanted to.
 
I didn't want to enter this debate, but here I am. I consider myself completely unbiased, because I have no stake in mass launches. Ban them, fine with me. Have them, fine with me.

Here's my point: everyone seems to be of two extremes.

  1. I do not feel safe when there are mass launches. Too risky, should be banned. Your fun is less important than my safety.
  2. You don't have the right to inflict rules on others just because you don't feel safe. If you don't feel safe, stay home.
I believe there is a simple compromise that could satisfy everyone. Neither ban mass launches (one extreme), nor launch multiple rockets willy-nilly without a care for safety (the other extreme).

Instead, plan the launch for a specific time of day, and announce the heck out of it. "Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, today at 1:00 we will be launching fifteen rockets all at once. This is inherently more risky to spectators than single-rocket launches. We will have a fifteen minute hiatus starting at 12:45, during which anyone who is concerned about personal safety may leave the field."

At 12:45, it is announced again, and people are given 15 minutes to leave the field and drive around the block, or at least sit in their cars.

This way, the one group gets to have its mass launch and whatever fun that entails, and the other group gets to retreat to a safer place. Voila!
 
I'd feel better if they were their own launch day, but that discussion is good to have. Issues I see are
a) it takes me hours to prep, I don't wanna leave in the middle of that, or setup and tear down
b) people working vol shifts would be kinda stuck.

im not on a crusade, but if I can help change some attitudes, all the better
 
I think this debate boils down to two camps. One seeks knowledge and wants to learn and challenge themselves, and takes risks after consideration and tries to keep them as low as possible. The other is in this for kicks and is willing to increase risk to others substantially, and thinks "but it's fun" justifys that risk.

See, and that's what irritates me, personally... You haven't taken any amount of time to understand my position, but you've taken an awful lot of time going out of your way to denigrate my opinion.
1) "in this for kicks" ... You do realize you're on a HOBBY forum about HOBBYISTS doing their HOBBY, right? If you're not in this "for kicks" go get a job at a rocket lab and leave us hobbyists alone.
2) "Willing to increase risk to others substantially and thinks 'but it's fun' justifys [sic] the risk." ... See, that's where I disagree. The "MASS launches" you're speaking of cost the rocketeer several hundred dollars to enter. I can't think of anyone investing that money just willy-nilly. I would TRUST 15 large K motors going up in a drag race with people that dropped $600 each for the pleasure far more than I would trust 15 small G motors going up at the cost of $20/$30 each. One group has invested the requisite $600 and the time and further materials (altimeters, epoxy, etc.) into their flight and is therefore far more likely to take it seriously. You want to talk about safety? I've seen IDIOTS laugh and giggle on YouTube videos about how this I motor is totally going to shred their little TP Tube rocket and then actually push the button on the thing. THAT is far more dangerous, in my opinion.

As the guy who pushed the button on almost every flight at MWP this year, there were a few individual launches that I flight skittish about pushing the button on. "Mass drag races" that are being talked about here, at least in what I've seen, have had a better safety record than the individual launches! I'm sorry that irritates you so much, but seriously, I have DATA to back that up. What Bat-Mite suggested about a little more clarity of the risks and allowing people the chance to leave if they want sounds like a reasonable compromise, I think. It's based on the idea of the educated consumer... If people understand the risk and still want to take the risk, that's their perogative. I really can't understand the impulse to BAN something outright just because someone feels justified in telling others what to do. You want to gather data? Sure, go ahead, I'm all for it. But go ahead and be SCIENTIFIC about it and record data for EVERY flight, not just the near misses. See, cause ONLY logging data about near-misses tells you VERY little about the conclusions you've been trying to make here. A scientific accounting of every flight, it's success, failure or "near-miss" would yield the kind of information you would need to form any sort of actual conclusion. This is BASIC science 101 experiment validity stuff here.

In conclusion...
You want to gather data, go ahead.
You dislike drag races, okie-dokie.
You want to see drag races banned, good for you.
But PLEASE stop tossing yourself around as some sort of authority over everyone else and insulting everyone that disagrees with you. Seriously.

and finally... I like drag races. I want to keep em cause I like em. They're fun to watch. They're fun to participate in. Based on the data and experience that I have, I believe they're no less safe than launching one rocket at a time (the "added" risk is balanced by the "added" eyeballs and awareness). That's my opinion, and I can understand that others feel differently, and it makes logical sense that some people would feel less safe with drag races. I just happen to disagree.
 
"Mass drag races" that are being talked about here, at least in what I've seen, have had a better safety record than the individual launches! I'm sorry that irritates you so much, but seriously, I have DATA to back that up.

Agree. The mass launches I have seen have been organized, with participant vetted qualification criteria, flown at a pre-announced time, and everyone present was required to be on their feet and watching. Compare that to a regular launch sequence, one after another, announced over the PA system to people who are busy doing something else (prepping their own rockets, having lunch, playing frisbee, etc) and not REALLY paying attention. A rocket with a problem is going to be a rocket with a problem and I believe would be LESS of a danger to the crowd in the first scenario.
 
See, and that's what irritates me, personally... You haven't taken any amount of time to understand my position, but you've taken an awful lot of time going out of your way to denigrate my opinion.

Look throw as many words as you want at it... You cant get around the fact there is no purpose to drag races.

Yes people do stupid things on single flights. That doesn't make doing stupid things on drag races ok. All stupid things are stupid and should not be done. This is obvious.

Your arguments of adding eyeballs making drag races safer is questionable. if you've got a rocket tracked, and I've got one tracked, and yours is going to hit me, the odds of you being able to warn me effectively are zero. Add multiple shreads and it doesn't matter how many eyes you have. You're all standing on a dart board and hoping.


I have yet to see one valid reason to accept the risk of a massive drag race. I'm still listening and waiting...and All I'm hearing is "hold mah beer and watch dis!"

Fact is, many of these launches you have people building kits in a rush, that are likely over their head (as evidenced by the failure rate) on motors they aren't ready for, with wonderful techniques like "foam and fly" the night before and "N5800? sure I've got 20 minutes and a tube of 5 minute epoxy"

How many ways can you dial up the risk and still act like it's ok?
 
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Agree. The mass launches I have seen have been organized, with participant vetted qualification criteria, flown at a pre-announced time, and everyone present was required to be on their feet and watching. Compare that to a regular launch sequence, one after another, announced over the PA system to people who are busy doing something else (prepping their own rockets, having lunch, playing frisbee, etc) and not REALLY paying attention. A rocket with a problem is going to be a rocket with a problem and I believe would be LESS of a danger to the crowd in the first scenario.

This is flawed logic. It assumes watching 15 rockets makes it safe. The argument is that even if everyone is watching, having that many rockets is not safe because you cant track them all.

Whatever happens in a single launch is totally irrelevant to this point.
 
Is a purpose required to participate in a hobby?

Purpose is required to accept risk to life. (especially others lives) When you shread a 20 pound rocket, it's not like playing chess on an unstable table.

My stance is this: We all accept the risks of single flights. it's known and mitigated in several ways by design. From certifications, to prep rules, to how we load them on the pad, count them down and watch the flight for issues. I believe these risks are acceptable compared to the things learned, challenges people take on, and yes, fun.

Drag races exponentially increase risk. From added pressure from deadlines, a set flight time, and a tendency for people to get into projects that may push their limits, to the actual act of putting that many rockets in the air. You can not track them all. Even if you assign spotters, there is no effective way for them to warn everyone of danger in a reasonable amount of time. Other than fun and "gee whiz that was cool" I see no reason for it. I do not feel the benefits justify the risks.



A point to remember here- if you follow the current TRA rules, ten I600R's would require a 1,000 foot min safe distance.
5 full H motors would require 600 feet.
10 K's would need 2,000 feet.
https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/SLP - May 2016.pdf

So if you're following the rules, effectively no major launch is going to setup for that. It basically leaves what I've been arguing for here.... Only drag a couple rockets at a time, and do it on rockets and motors you're familiar with. Of course, it counts on people following the rules already in place
 
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Can we get mass launches prohibited?

im not on a crusade

Look throw as many words as you want at it... You cant get around the fact there is no purpose to drag races.

Yes people do stupid things on single flights. That doesn't make doing stupid things on drag races ok. All stupid things are stupid and should not be done. This is obvious.

Your arguments of adding eyeballs making drag races safer is questionable. if you've got a rocket tracked, and I've got one tracked, and yours is going to hit me, the odds of you being able to warn me effectively are zero. Add multiple shreads and it doesn't matter how many eyes you have. You're all standing on a dart board and hoping.

I have yet to see one valid reason to accept the risk of a massive drag race. I'm still listening and waiting...and All I'm hearing is "hold mah beer and watch dis!"

Fact is, many of these launches you have people building kits in a rush, that are likely over their head (as evidenced by the failure rate) on motors they aren't ready for, with wonderful techniques like "foam and fly" the night before and "N5800? sure I've got 20 minutes and a tube of 5 minute epoxy"

How many ways can you dial up the risk and still act like it's ok?

This is flawed logic. It assumes watching 15 rockets makes it safe. The argument is that even if everyone is watching, having that many rockets is not safe because you cant track them all.

Whatever happens in a single launch is totally irrelevant to this point.

Ok, you want to talk flawed logic. Lets start with getting your facts straight. Who was the RSO that allowed people to fly motors they weren't ready for. In a kit they built in a rush? Where did this happen? Clearly an unsafe practice. Did you see it? If you saw it, did you say anything about it at the time? Or just hear about it third hand, or read about it on the internet? And what (be specific) failure rate are you referring to?

I don't personally like sparky motors. There is no purpose to sparky motors. NASA doesn't use them. It is a waste of propellant. Less Ns in given motor casing. They start fires on the ground. Can we get Sparky motors prohibited?

But some people LIKE sparky motors. For some of the same reasons some people LIKE drag racing. This is a social activity. And as long as it remains a legal social activity whose responsible members follow the reasonable guidelines we have been given, those who choose to participate can and those who choose not to can depart the area if they feel the need to. This IS a valid reason to drag race. Valid to SOME people doesn't necessarily mean valid to EVERYONE. So, you may choose to disagree. The beauty if living in a free country is the opportunity / right / obligation to discuss things we disagree on and live with the consensus. More so now than ever.

What I said was it is better to have everyone paying attention than almost no one. I stand by that. And the mention of a scheduled time is in reference to Bat-mite's perfectly reasonable suggestion that there be a scheduled time so people who choose to depart the area may do so.
 
I don't personally like sparky motors. There is no purpose to sparky motors. NASA doesn't use them. It is a waste of propellant. Less Ns in given motor casing. They start fires on the ground. Can we get Sparky motors prohibited?

I am OK with this proposal. However, they have a good safety record ;)



There are multiple videos on youtube of organized drags with people claiming they do not believe a rocket will survive, I just saw one with 18 L1 certs dragged on sparkies!!! OH NO!! ;), and many many many videos of rockets banging off each other or shredding during flight and people dodging debris. These are known events and I'm not taking the time to track them down for you.




The arguments of "It's fun" and "you can't tell me what to do" are now being ignored.... as they hold no validity in a safety discussion.
 
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I am OK with this proposal. However, they have a good safety record ;)

I wasn't really proposing it. Just attempting to make an example of alternate viewpoints.

There are multiple videos on youtube of organized drags with people claiming they do not believe a rocket will survive, I just saw one with 18 L1 certs dragged on sparkies!!! OH NO!! ;), and many many many videos of rockets banging off each other or shredding during flight and people dodging debris. These are known events and I'm not taking the time to track them down for you.

You wouldn't be tracking them down for me. They were the foundation of your argument. Just wanting to make sure it was properly researched. Multiple videos on youtube (sic) is good enough for me.

The arguments of "It's fun" and "you can't tell me what to do" are now being ignored.... as they hold no validity in a safety discussion.

Again, "Valid to SOME people doesn't necessarily mean valid to EVERYONE. So, you may choose to disagree."

P.S. liked your website.
 
You wouldn't be tracking them down for me. They were the foundation of your argument. Just wanting to make sure it was properly researched. Multiple videos on youtube (sic) is good enough for me.

Does it really bug you that much I didn't hit shift twice?

Again, "Valid to SOME people doesn't necessarily mean valid to EVERYONE. So, you may choose to disagree."

P.S. liked your website.

My goal is to get people talking and thinking. There have been some scary incidents. how can we make that better?

and thanks!
 
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"How many ways can you dial up the risk and still act like it's ok?"
"This is flawed logic. It assumes watching 15 rockets makes it safe. The argument is that even if everyone is watching, having that many rockets is not safe because you cant track them all. "
"Purpose is required to accept risk to life. (especially others lives) When you shread a 20 pound rocket, it's not like playing chess on an unstable table."

These were some of the things just stated above.

I've been going to launches for about 4 years now, and the launches that have had drag races are really exhilarating. I've not seen anything happen (no shreads or stray rockets) during those launches. All launches are fun right? And the idea is to be safe while having fun. Rocketry in and of itself is a risky hobby. It sounds like maybe model trains might be more up someone's alley if fear of the power behind rocketry is too much?
 
A point to remember here- if you follow the current TRA rules, ten I600R's would require a 1,000 foot min safe distance.
5 full H motors would require 600 feet.
10 K's would need 2,000 feet.
https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Documents/Safety Code/SLP - May 2016.pdf

Unless I am missing something, those aren't the rules. The TRA research safety code requires:
7.5.3.1. Each rocket participating in a mass launch (more than 3 rockets simultaneously) shall be at least twice the safe distance for that rocket’s total installed impulse.

So the ten (or 100) I600Rs would be at 400'.
 
I am a firm believer that we need to add an amendment to our Constitution guaranteeing the fundamental right to be stupid, whether you exercise that right knowingly or unknowingly. If you want to put a cup of boiling hot coffee between your legs while you drive...you are exercising your right to be stupid. If you are exercising this right, you have no right to sue someone else because of your stupidity.

I say that to say this.

It is the responsibility of a rocket builder to build a rocket that is as safe as possible and to fly it in as safe of manner as possible in any set of flight conditions...including a drag race. It is the responsibility of those attending rocket launches, whether they are there to fly or just watch to realize that despite every best intention, rockets do not always fly the way they were intended to fly. Sometimes they fly into the crowd. That's the way it is. At every major launch I've been to, there is a sign telling people they are attending this event at their own risk.

Despite all this, people still exercise their right to be stupid by ignoring all those warnings. So why should everyone else suffer because of one person's stupidity?
 
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Unless I am missing something, those aren't the rules. The TRA research safety code requires:


So the ten (or 100) I600Rs would be at 400'.

Did you follow my link?

right from Tripoli. Twice the complex distance for total installed of all rockets.
 
Another activity I'm involved in has a hypothesis I think can be applied here: The frequency of bad outcomes is exponentially related to the number of objects in motion.
 
Stop acting childish, and make a suggestion as to a valid reason to accept the increased risks, or a good way to mitigate them. I'm all ears.

There is no real purpose in any of what we do except enjoyment. No one is advancing the human condition by flying their rockets for fun. In the context of a hobby, purpose and risk are entirely separate issues. Analyze the risk for sure, decide if risk mitigation is necessary and what measures to take (from no mitigation through outright banning). But trying to assign purpose to anything we do for recreational enjoyment is a fool's errand.
 
Did you follow my link?

right from Tripoli. Twice the complex distance for total installed of all rockets.

Hi David,

I followed your link. All of the Tripoli launches I have attended were "Research" launches, so from your link, section III, E. would apply. I cut and pasted so there can be no confusion.

This was the link you provided >>> https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Doc...May 2016.pdf

E. Each rocket participating in a mass launch (more than 3 rockets simultaneously) shall be at least twice the safe distance for that rocket’s total installed impulse.

Frankly, I think you are looking at Section II for Commercial launches, which would not apply at a Research launch. I do believe that section II F. 1. is based on NFPA 1127, 4.16.3.3 (2018 edition) which is twice the complex distance. There is no indication that the total impulse for all rockets must be added together to find the "correct" impulse class. If that were the case, it would be clearly spelled out in NFPA.

Bottom line is 10 I-class rockets @ 400 ft.

I'm not a rocketry lawyer, but I can read. I am fairly certain I have interpreted the rules correctly.
 
I'm pretty sure I can read too -

Total means all, and theres no indication of "use the highest impulse rocket" or of just one rocket.... total... as in all.

33218314595_c2db45785c_b.jpg
 
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But maybe not reading all the way through other people's comments? Or all the way through documents?
Tripoli Code.jpg
 
Unless I am missing something, those aren't the rules. The TRA research safety code requires:


So the ten (or 100) I600Rs would be at 400'.

The wording has changed in 1127-2018. My understanding is that the minimum safety distance is calculated from the sum of the impulses for all the rockets involved in the drag race. That is the "total installed impulse", not the impulse for each individual rocket. So ten I600 would be ~4000N-s installed impulse, which is a complex L so the distance required would be 600'. Of course my understanding could be wrong but the wording is not clear in the rule.
 
Can you explain the stuff I have marked in green, Perhaps I'm missing something.

Capture2.JPG
 
The top is for commercial launches... Which yes there are much less of since TRA now allows NAR fliers at Research days.

However if there's a single NAR only flier in a drag race, the Commercial rules apply. (in my experience, there is always that one guy)

And...it appears the 2018 version is going to the "total" count. not just one
 
NFPA 1127 4.16.3.3 Paraphrasing to avoid copyright infringement:

When 3 or more rockets are launched the minimum safe distance shall be twice the value in table 4.16.3 for a complex rocket of the same total installed impulse.
 
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