Newbie questions

[noahnott]

Im new to rockets, and may be quitting soon. Not yet, but i usually quit a project after a a few weeks. So far ive made two rockets from scratch (in 1 week) which are a little crude. However, this is getting boring and repetative. Rockets have basically the same idea (as far as i know with small rockets), long tube, fins, nose cone, payload sometimes, and a recovery system. Almost forgot, the motor or two or three or four.

Im starting to dislike fins because they look delicate, somewhat ugly and not original. Is it possible to use a CO2 canister that people use in painball guns. Im talking about one of those tiny canisters about 10 grams or something rediculously light (not the ones that weight 5 tonnes).

Is there a way to hook up my reciever (which came from a piccoboard but the gyro broke so i ripped the reciever off), a battery, and a few servos up to the CO2 canister as a way of stabilizing my rocket. Gyros on the x, y and z (left/right, front/back, spin) axis and correct the rockets direction if it moves anywhere. (yes i know there is some drift which is why i hook it up to my tx and correct it if it gets outa hand.

Basically in short, im asking: is there a way to control the flow of CO2 going through a tube out of the rocket. Is there someway to control this using a servo/valve/something and to hook it up to a gyro? What is that something i need to buy to do it?

Sounds a little far fetch for a person like me. I may try but i doubt i will finish or start it.

 

[TeenRocketNerd]

wow...where to begin: well, you sound motivated... it seems as thogh you are talking about something similar to vectored thrust, which is not something we typically (or ever) deal with... as you say, you think rockets are "boring" and "the same", you must not have looked around much...or if you have, this hobby is not for you... maybe a little background would help :what's the biggest motor you have flown? how old are you? etc. etc. Actually, I don't see how you could remotely control a rocket, or use Co2 to propel it, or use it as propulsion in anyway...that seems dangerous, and unfeasable to me. Especially since, the NAR rules prevent you from using metal in lpr, except for the engine hook, ... so...
controllable (vectored) thrust: no
using Co2/ Co2 canister as propulsion: no
gyro use : no
servo use to control flow: no

none of these scenarios are anything we would deal with, are dangerous, and most definetly way above your ability, as you've only scratch built two rockets... I think that if this is the kind of stuff you are going to start trying, then you'd be better off getting out of this hobby...

just my 2 cents in the matter at hand
i do not mean to flame you, but you clearly don't know what you are talking about here.

 

[noahnott]

Haha, i knew that was going to come. Well thanks for the advice, i think. Now that i know its not allowed.
One more thing, i dont know much about rockets...well, back to thinking again. I usually never finish projects, so it was more over an idea than something to build....as for me wanting to build it: i dont know if thats possible. Reason 1) im 15 with a lack of knowledge 2) limited cash

Thanks for commenting anyways...

 

[TeenRocketNerd]

Originally posted by noahnott
Haha, i knew that was going to come. Well thanks for the advice, i think. Now that i know its not allowed, if it were possible:

I was still thinking of using a casual motor of the sort

Get rid of the fins (or just have small ones)

I was thinking of using the servos which controlled a valve of some sort (who knows) which controls the pressure in diff directions. Not to control fins.

One more thing, i dont know much about rockets...well, back to thinking again. I usually never finish projects, so it was more over an idea than something to build....as for me wanting to build it: i dont know if thats possible. Reason 1) im 15 with a lack of knowledge 2) limited cash

Thanks for commenting anyways...

got to college, become a missle tech, and then maybe you can do what you're talking about... until then...don't try it...if u attempt something like this, and it blows up, you'll give all of us rocketeers a bad/worse reputation...

 

[shrox]

Originally posted by noahnott


Im starting to dislike fins because they look delicate, somewhat ugly and not original. Is it possible to use a CO2 canister that people use in painball guns. Im talking about one of those tiny canisters about 10 grams or something rediculously light (not the ones that weight 5 tonnes).

Hey, not all fins are ugly and unoriginal...check this out kid.

https://www.fliskits.com/products/rocketkits/kit_detail/alien8.htm

 

[noahnott]

Hmm, so i was wrong! Fins arnt that bad after all.

I have one other question. On the list of rules for rockets it says no metal may be used. Does that mean no metal period, or no metal but electronics, batteries, and what not are ok.

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by noahnott
Im new to rockets, and may be quitting soon. SNIP
Im starting to dislike fins because they look delicate, somewhat ugly and not original.SNIP

We also frown upon discriminating against any particular culture...

To address your metal question, body tubes, nose cones and fins are generally paper/cardboard/wood sometimes plastic. There are components that are metal such as an engine hook and also launch equipment, batteries, ignitor wires and things....but since you'll probably quit...nevermind.
(hoo boy weekend c'mon)
Andy

 

[ben]

pretty much no metal other than what you listed. I think you should do some searches for fins. There are many types of rockets out there, such as Flis Kits, with cool looking kits. If you could spend a little money into the hobby and get a timer you could staget biogger motors and even get your JRL1 (Not recommending with your skill level, sorry) So there are alot of good things about rocketry so join a club and give it a chance. and Believe me I know all about cash issues

thanx, Ben

 

[noahnott]

Ah, ty. By the "Im probably quitting soon," this could be one of those things i wont quit. I hope i wont, because im starting to enjoy it.

Fins arnt that bad, i wish there was an alternative but of course theres always tubular fins and gliders. =D

Ill look into the timer thing a little more. Im still looking for how it ignites the second stage.

 

[jimn]

I think he means bigger motors. JRL 1 is junior level one certification, available from NAR (National Association of Rocketry). You have to be at least 14 years old. Under certain restrictions, you can fly H and I motors.

I hope you stay with the hobby. It really is a lot of fun. Go to an organized launch if you can.

Jim

 

[ben]

sorry for not clarrifying and don't do google for rocketry use the search at the top of this forum first. Motors got 1/4A, 1/2A, A, B, C, D, E, F, G those are motors anyone with enough knowhow can fly you need to get a Junior Level One if you are 14 -18 and at 18 you get Full Level One rights. That means you can fly H, and I impulse motors. Once 18, you can also get you Level 2 Which alows you to fly J, K, and L motors. along with all the ones under that. Once you have manage that, if you live anywhere in the Midewest or West you will/should/could get you Level 3 M, N, and UP!!! I would seriously suggest getting a 24/40 Relodable Casing if you have 24mm rockets after you fly some C11's and D's and E's. Then do it with the 24mm RMS case. Them move on to the most versitale 29/40-120 RMS case. and ETC. Hope that helps.

thanx, Ben

 

[brianc]

Originally posted by noahnott
*edit* whats a biogger motor and a JRL 1? Cant find it on google.

That would be Junior Level 1. Or more correctly, the NAR Junior HPR Participation Program.
See here- https://nar.org/jrhpr.html

BTW- Welcome to the forum!

 

[noahnott]

Biogger; how did i not see bigger out of a small typo like that!? Well thanks for telling me, but i dont think i want to use bigger motors. Sounds kindof dangerous (and yes im the same guy with the C02 canister idea). As for looking for organized launches i would like to see one, IF i can find one near me.

 

[ben]

go to www.nar.org and go under the sanctioned launch part. Find a lunch club in your area. It is not dangerous if you know what you are doing and have a big enough area. I think you could really get into it. and as for the CO2 thing, I would try RC fins. make a small flab that is hinged on the bottom of your fins, attacha conrtol linkage to it and thwn to a servo and build that into ytour rocket. Then you can control its motion. *WARNING* You must be carefull if you move it to much you could have some serious issues *WARNING*

thanx, Ben

 

[f16fan12]

Hey, welcome to the forum. There was some thread about using inlets and straws to direct the airflow to stabilize the rocket, and also I believe there was an issue of Extreme Rocketry which talked about the first ever use of controlled thrust or something with motors to adjust attitude. 2001 or 2002 maybe?

Anyway, if you wanna talk about rockets or whatever, you can always post here, or if you have AIM, you can im me. My sn is the same one I use here, f16fan12. By the way, I'm 16 years old and about to get my Junior level one cert. I too have gone through projects which never amounted to much, but I've been building model rockets for nearly two years now and I can't see myself stopping!

Jesse

 

[rocketking]

There is so much out there that may yet tickle you're fancy! Another good thing is Staging- using one motor burn- through to ignite another. And since you've already been given a link to Fliskits, here's another with one of the sleakest looking 2-stagers going...

Welcome!

Glen

https://www.fliskits.com/products/01prod_fs.htm

 

[noahnott]

Thanks for the url. The second rocket i made from sratch is supposed to be a 2 stage rocket. Its done and according to that nasa simulator (it works right, of course not as good as rocksim) , it should fly and the first stage should tumble after it burns up. My only problem now is getting a booster motor for it which i dont think they sell in this town.

I would like to use a timer but im still confused about how it ignites the second stage. Ill just look that up somewhere.

But here is a question i do have to ask here: is PVC pipe 1/16th inch thick and 1" diameter too heavy? Or should i look around for some used up toilet paper rolls =P ...

 

[paulk]

Originally posted by noahnott
...Im starting to dislike fins because they look delicate, somewhat ugly and not original.

Er, if you dislike fins, check out artapplewhite.com . Or the foam cup rockets at fliskits.com . Or the homemade fan-blade rockets posted on TRF. Or helicopter recovery rockets at apogeerockets.com . Or the wide variety of gliders made by edmonds. There are a lot of cool things out there that can be launched.

I find the hobby fun due to the combination of modeling skills, prepping skills, and seeing my creations fly over 200mph and come safely (usually) back to earth. Sometimes I spend a ton of time making the model look great, other times I like a quick build of something unique or goofy, just for its flight performance. Check out a copy of "The Handbook of Model Rocketry" by G. Harry Stine at your local library. You might be surprised at the amount of science that can be learned about even your basic 3FNC (3 fins and a Nose Cone) rocket.

If you launch a few rockets, and don't get that "Wow, cool....." feeling each time one goes up, it might not be for you.

-Paul

 

[noahnott]

I know what u mean by the "wow cool..." feeling especially when they come right back to me. I also know the woops, not enough angle and the rocket drifs into a tree feeling. And no i havent gotten the *yawn* yet from a launch (only about 10 launches so far).

I just checked out the fliskits products, now i know where i can get some stuff.

Ill check out the url u gave about finless rockets; right after i eat dinner.

Thanks every1 - noah

 

[RaVen1357]

I would like to use a timer but im still confused about how it ignites the second stage. Ill just look that up somewhere.

Normally in LPR rockets, the ejection charge from the 1st stage ignites the 2nd stage.

 

[jimn]

Originally posted by RaVen1357
Normally in LPR rockets, the ejection charge from the 1st stage ignites the 2nd stage.

NO. Use a booster motor (no delay) the hot gasses and burning material from the lower stage ignites the upper stage. Do not use a regular motor, one with a delay and ejection charge. They will not reliably ignite an upper stage.

 

[Yruc]

Originally posted by noahnott

But here is a question i do have to ask here: is PVC pipe 1/16th inch thick and 1" diameter too heavy? Or should i look around for some used up toilet paper rolls =P ...

Take this with a grain of salt as I'm a "newbie" myself, but the PVC pipe is very difficult to get things to "stick" to it and it is to heavy for low powered Rocketry.

As for the toilet paper rolls they are not strong enough to use, same with paper towel rolls as well. If you want a bunch of paper tubes I think you can find the build/design it your self kits that come with a lot of parts. Also check your hobby store as I know estes (and I'm sure others do as well) sell a small bags of different types of rocket parts..

Take it slow, easy and most of all have fun. Best of luck to you.

 

[jflis]

noahnott,

First, welcome to the hobby and welcome to TRF.

Don't sell yourself nor the hobby short. Model rocketry *may* not be for you, but I don't think that you have explored enough of it to really decide.

It is clear that you have an interest. What I can see of your posts, you are looking for a challenge. Be that a challenge to your skills, your imagination, or your patience

I beleive that model rocketry can provide for any and all of these challenges.

As for avoiding what is often referred to as the "three fins and a nose cone" dilema, I invite you to review the many rockets at FlisKits as well as the many other fine vendors that you will find on TRF.

There is a strong drive to provide more creative kits today than at any other time in the history of model rocketry, with the possible exception of the early/mid-1960's

The other things that you may wish to consider include, but are not limited to:
(NOTE: all of these things listed below are *doable* in the world of model rocketry. They all require special skills and experiences that you can "learn as you go" (there's that challenge to your patience ))

- Electronic staging
- Dual Deploy (where you deploy a small recovery device at apogee (highest point of your rockets flight) and a much larger device much closer to the ground (to keep from loosing your models to drift))
- Electronic payloads
- Aerial photography
- Aerial videography
- Contest flying
- Radio control boost/rocket gliders
- Breaking the sound barrier

and the list goes on. Heck, come up with something *new* that has never been done before. *there's* a challenge for you!

Good luck and I hope you stay around long enough to truely *know* if this is a good hobby for you.

Warm regards,
jim

 

[JBeau]

Originally posted by RaVen1357
Normally in LPR rockets, the ejection charge from the 1st stage ignites the 2nd stage.

I don't think that's right. The first stage isn't supposed to have an ejection charge (C6-0), is it? The last number is the delay before ejection, so ZERO means no delay and no ejection.

Instead, the motor simply burns through and when the top of the motor finally ignites the hot, fiery gases travel up into the next motor and ignite it chaotically. The ignition of the second motor will then "push" the first stage away, breaking the tape seal you put around the two engines.

 

[Speedtek]

Building rockets is fun. Recovering them is another story. sometimes you need to build some challenging rockets and try to get them back. or try and build rocket gliders from scratch. Watching them fail to me is a motivator to try again. I stay away from conventional designs and try to build some strange things that fly. Or make rockets that spin and do tricks. there is a guy in our club who flies UFO looking rockets that do a flip right before the ejection charge. It is a sight to see!

 

[noahnott]

If a timer will work, i guess ill look into one and buy if it is possible to use it in a LPR. Using the first stage to ignite the second and thrid and fourth (why not just go all out while im at it!?) seems like there is a high chance of failure.

And btw, by the time this post is written 5 more posts have come in...so let me read a few and ill post again =)

 

[noahnott]

Now im posting again...

Ive read about the first stage igniting the second without the delay charge. Ive actually made one, i would post the pic but dont know how

The toilet paper roll thing was a joke. But hey, they do look like the same tubes some of the rocket kits come with.

What do you people use to draw out your plans? Just pencil and paper and draw it to scale or actual size? Or just make it as it comes out of your mind. Or go onto autocad or something of the sort and make it? Just wondering because im a person who builds when an idea strikes me (it doesnt work so well, which is why i need suggestions for making drawings)

Thanks for the help and info everyone, im still thinking away, but chemistry homework still has to be done. Fun fun.

Before i go, i was searching around for liquid fueled rocket motors. Um, i found one with drawings. Not that i want to use it, but it sounds dangerous and with a 15 second burn time or something rediculous like that...Does that even work, seems like the chamber where the two chemicals mix is too small for them to burn properly.


-Noah

 

[adrian]

I would have thought that toilet rolls are fine for rockets powered by BP motors. They won't be quite as strong or easy to paint as "official" tubes, but it should be possible to build something flyable. In fact, pretty well any cardboard tube can be used, and the mark of a dedicated rocketeer is that he can't go into a shop and see anything packed in a tube without thinking about how to make it fly.

Posting pictures: use your favourite photo program to resize the picture to 640x480. The file must be no larger than 100Kb, so you'll want to save it as a JPG with medium compression. Then look below where you write your article and find the box marked "Attach file". (Have a look elsewhere on TRF. There have been threads recently about resizing pictures for posting here.)

Fins: you like scratch-building your own designs. Design your own fins! If you don't like the usual trapezoid fins, make something else. To me, the fins are the biggest factor in the rocket's "personality".

Staging using proper LPR booster motors is fairly reliable provided you don't do it the way Estes tell you. Build the booster long enough that there is a slight gap between the booster motor and upper stage motor. Drill or cut some small holes around that gap. When the booster burns out, it shoots gas and burning particles forward. The gas is bad; it can blow off the upper stage before it can ignite. The vent holes will get rid of the gas. The burning particles are what ignite the upper stage.

For drawing out plans, personally I use good old pencil and paper. Sometimes it's a scale model of a space rocket or missile, sometimes it's something I make up as I go along. Here are some of my models, mostly scratch-built.

Oh, and one more thing. Fins are not compulsory. This is my model of the Congreve artillery rocket. Whenever Americans sing their national anthem and get to the bit about "the rocket's red glare", this is what they're singing about.

 

[RaVen1357]

NO. Use a booster motor (no delay) the hot gasses and burning material from the lower stage ignites the upper stage. Do not use a regular motor, one with a delay and ejection charge. They will not reliably ignite an upper stage.

Right, you don't want a motor with a delay. Booster delay = Bad.

Originally posted by JBeau
I don't think that's right. The first stage isn't supposed to have an ejection charge (C6-0), is it? The last number is the delay before ejection, so ZERO means no delay and no ejection.

Instead, the motor simply burns through and when the top of the motor finally ignites the hot, fiery gases travel up into the next motor and ignite it chaotically. The ignition of the second motor will then "push" the first stage away, breaking the tape seal you put around the two engines.

I was under the impression that the booster motors had no delay but ignited the upper stage with an ejection charge. I did some reading on the Estes website and found otherwise. It is as you stated.

OK, so I phrased my original answer wrong, but at least I got somebody to answer his question

 

[noahnott]

Thanks for the great news by saying booster rockets work best with a space between the stages. Well, guess my first (actually 2nd) rocket wont work. Could i get rid of the space between the stages and just drill a ton of holes in the coupler instead?

One last question, where the first and second stages connect, is it supposed to be a tight fit, loose fit, medium tight, barely hanging in there...im lost on that part. How do i know if its right?

Thanks for helping
-Noah