Newbie idea for better chute deployment? Will this work?

[Spitfire222]

From my limited experience, wouldn't going to an E20 or E30 would require a larger rocket tube size than the 24mm tube already built into the Bigger Daddy? I just received some E12-6 motors and a 12V launch system.

The 12V launch pad seems to have a red JST micro connector right in the center of the batt tray for a replaceable/rechargeable battery. I have some JST to XT60 or EC3 and T type adapters so I can use my inventory of 3 cell LiPos.
Don

E20s and E30s are 24mm motors, so they work fine in the Big Daddy's motor tube. They have a built in retention ring at the nozzle end, so you don't need to worry about the motor block ring in the fwd part of the motor tube. You can secure the motor with the hook or a piece of tape.

I use a 850 mAh, 3S LiPo battery from my RC plane inside the PSII launch controller, and it lights Estes ignitors immediately and consistently; you won't be disappointed. I highly recommend a LiPo for anyone who has the PSII controller.

 

[Hifin Sword]

I already have the Estes E12-6 motors so they will be used first. They were 3 for $19.25. The E20-4W for 2 at $27.54 seems expensive.
https://www.rocketryworks.com/e20-4...eqmh5YiWm8gOcAbbmB7ERBChj3O2JyfBoCCeYQAvD_BwEIf my E12-6s aren't strong enough I may give the E20-4Ws a go. I've looked at those Aerotech reusable motors. Someone here recommended them. But it's so confusing. I can't quite figure out what comes with what and how they fit into the rocket and the reusable can. Do I need a stopper inside the blast tube or do they stop themselves like the E30-4Ws? Here's a 24mm RMS MOTOR for $60.59. It's just the casing but there's no suggestion as to what motor goes with it. I hate wasting money on parts that don't fit or aren't needed.
http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/aro/ar...MMy6l02KH4HYPb4ghn9spQBRpeORVgRhoCVq0QAvD_BwEMy goal is not to see how high I can go, but to NOT LOSE A ROCKET and have fun watching it go up and come down SLOWLY, with a parachute. The D size motors are supposed to be twice as strong as the C size I used so the E size should be 4 times as strong as the C11. If that isn't enough to get high and deploy the chute I may have to try the E30 size.
Here's a E30-7T 24mm 2pk for $26.79. Although it looks almost identical to the RELOADABLE 24mm RMS MOTOR but at $26.79 I'm sure it's a 1-time use rocket.
http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/aro/ar...9rsJ4wK9QawlwgdZPc7YsvEyPSKJI2hxoCzdkQAvD_BwEFrom this picture
http://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?search_cat_s=&str_s=reloadable+24mm+rocketreloadable rockets look like a lot of work to put together for each launch.
Don

 

[Hifin Sword]

Sorry for the long posts. So to the point, would adding talcum powder, graphite or silicone grease the rocket tube help when removing the spent motor?
Don

 

[DigBaddy]

From my limited experience, wouldn't going to an E20 or E30 would require a larger rocket tube size than the 24mm tube already built into the Bigger Daddy? I just received some E12-6 motors and a 12V launch system.

No, those are both 24mm motors - same size as an Estes C11/D12.

edit, wasn't showing all the other posts that got to this before I posted....

 

[Rex R]

It helps if can remove the spent motor while it is still wàrm. I would check your motor mount tube,(.mmt) to see if the end has a bur. The paper casiñg. Can swell depending on humidity a little graphite probably wouldn't hurt. You don't want to increase the delay time beyond 4 sec
With an E engine that rocket won't need it. A 24/40 rms can take reloads up to F39-6, but an E20 will get it moving.

 

[Hifin Sword]

I'll give the graphite powder a try. I got the E12-6 only because the -4 requires some special handling charge from Estes of $35+, Or they must be picked up in person. The E12-6s don't require that special handling charge.

When I look at the Specifications on the RMS 24mm reloadable motors, it says its length is 2.75" (70mm). My Estes E12-6 is 97mm or 5.8". That means I can insert a stopper for the Estes E12-x size motors, The RMS 23mm reloadables should also fit. You said they have a lip to keep them from sliding up into the rocket.

Now I need to repair my rocket and try the E12-6s in it. Then I can figure out if the extra costs of the reloadables casing is worth the effort or needed for my Bigger Daddy. Do the RMS reloadables always come as a kit to assemble, or are they available already built?
Don

 

[Rex R]

Rms come as motor casing and reload kit separate from each other, I wonder how the e12-6 escaped the hazmat fee.

 

[Hifin Sword]

I don't know how the E12-6 escaped the fee but I bought 3 and launched one this past Tuesday at my club's fixed wing flying field. As someone predicted, including me, a 6 sec delay is too long. I will look at getting some D12-3 for the next launch.

I used my phone and a hat cam to film the launch not realizing one might interfere with the other. The apogee was good but the descent nearly ended in tragedy for the rocket. But at the very end, all turned out well except for some soggy shoes for me.
Don

 

[Hifin Sword]

I had to drill/cut a hole in the back of the Estes 12V controller battery cover I bought so I could use my JST to XT60 battery adapter. The 12.6V 3S China Hobby Line 3S 2200mAh LiPo I used, barely used any voltage for the launch. One cell remained at 4.19V, one dropped from 4.19V to 4.18V and the 3rd dropped from 4.19V to 4.17V for a total drop of 0.03V equivalency of ??Ah used. After the Bigger Daddy launch I used the batt to fly my FMS Super EZ fixed wing aircraft for just under 9 mins.

For the rebuild I took out the stopper (not exactly sure what it's called) used for the C11 motors, and used the bottom section of a spent C11 motor with the clay port facing the new motor. I only used about 1 inch of the stopper I had cut off and glued it inside, not the entire spent C11 motor. I think the hot ejector gases hitting the clay first will protect the cardboard 24mm tube and allow it to slightly cool before proceeding further up the ejector tube all the way up to the NC.

The old C11 stopper was keeping the E12-6 from sliding all the way into the motor mount. I think with this setup I will be able to use an RMS 24/40 RELOADABLE setup. I measured and glued in the stopper so that about 1/4" of the E12 would stick out of the bottom so I could get it out after the launch. That turned out well since it is now out, no problems.

I also added a centering ring inside the main tube below where the tape holds the rubber band securing the NC to the main tube.

 

[DigBaddy]

wait, so you choked the stuffer tube with an old motor?

 

[Hifin Sword]

wait, so you choked the stuffer tube with an old motor?

Yes. I cut off about an inch of the used rocket motor with the clay port on the end. I glued that inside the motor tube as a stopper so the E12 motor would stop at about 3 inches and leave about 1/4" outside the bottom that I can grab ahold of to pull out the spent motor. I enlarged the clay hole on the spent motor to about double the regular size. The clay should take the heat better and deflect it away from the exhaust tube for about an inch. I figure why use the standard green circles that come loose after a few launches. And the clay helps protects the exhaust tube. The inch surface inside is more area for the glue to hold it in place than the standard green blocking spacers.
Don

 

[DigBaddy]

Yes. I cut off about an inch of the used rocket motor with the clay port on the end. I glued that inside the motor tube as a stopper so the E12 motor would stop at about 3 inches and leave about 1/4" outside the bottom that I can grab ahold of to pull out the spent motor. I enlarged the clay hole on the spent motor to about double the regular size. The clay should take the heat better and deflect it away from the exhaust tube for about an inch. I figure why use the standard green circles that come loose after a few launches. And the clay helps protects the exhaust tube. The inch surface inside is more area for the glue to hold it in place than the standard green blocking spacers.
Don

Huh, I've never seen a motor block come loose..got rockets with dozens of launches on them.

I'd fear a chunk of clay cap bridging your blocker....but you do what you like....

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

This has been an exciting thread to read through. I prefer this thread to some other threads where a newby puts a G80 into a 4ft rocket and wonders why it exploded or landed in a different zip code.

My general advice is to do what works until it doesn't work then try something else which sounds like what you're doing so I applaud your efforts. My BD lawndarted after I tried wrapping it with LED lights at night. It survived about 6 flights including a massive Cato that blew out the front CR.



I decided to convert it to a Leviathan but honestly, the only thing that survived the BD was the NC because I epoxied the snot out of the MM (which probably helped it survive the Cato). I've never tried launching it on a 4ft rod but I did recently with my cloned Doorknob on a E20-4. I used one of those DBRM that everyone bought from Amazon and the plywood fin kit from Launch Labs. It arced over like yours did and I barely got it back, so I installed rail buttons to use on my 6ft rail that I made. I also made a payload section for it that I'll probably fly on 3/4 if the winds cooperate.

 

[Hifin Sword]

This has been an exciting thread to read through. I prefer this thread to some other threads where a newby puts a G80 into a 4ft rocket and wonders why it exploded or landed in a different zip code.

, , ,Cato that blew out the front CR.

, , ,

Ronz, I've been to Oahu a few times while my brother-in-law was stationed there at Pearl. Went to the flying club somewhere on the east side of the island north of Waimanalo beach I think. But I never drove so not exactly sure where it was. Your launch site reminds me of some areas we passed along the north beach or even a clearing in Aiea at the bottom of the hill near where my sis lived.

That fireball going off was quite impressive! What does the "CR" and the "MM" mean?

Since I don't plan to use the remaining 2 E12-6s in my Bigger Daddy, I'll have to build another rocket that can go higher and deploy the chute safely at altitude instead of 50' off the ground. My Bigger Daddy seems to be a close relative of the Leviathan you built. I think a D12-3 motor in my Bigger Daddy will go higher than the C11-3 launch I did back in January. I think that will be the next launch of my Bigger Daddy.

Or, , , maybe I should try a RMS 24/40 E size motor with a shorter delay. My Bigger Daddy has the blocking piece from the spent C11 at about 4 inches in. That should allow me to get an RMS 24/40 casing into the motor tube. If I am able to use an RMS type reloadable motor, can I buy them already built, or do they only come as kits?

I'm thinking my BD arced over because the CG is too far back. I did an OPEN ROCKET build but can't figure out how to get a complete look at the build with a motor loaded. The only selection is "NO MOTOR". With a motor loaded in OR, the CG will move even further back. I'm guessing I will need to add some weight to the nose. Maybe an altimeter up there will add enough weight forward? I have plenty of lead weights from my RC model hobby I can use too. Any help on adding a motor to my OPEN ROCKET build would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Don

 

[DigBaddy]

That sim looks all kind of weird... nosecone wrong shape, fins look small and too far forward...can you post the file?

 

[Hifin Sword]

That sim looks all kind of weird... nosecone wrong shape, fins look small and too far forward...can you post the file?


Here's the ORK file.

 

[Hifin Sword]

That sim looks all kind of weird... nosecone wrong shape, fins look small and too far forward...can you post the file?

Here's the ORK file.

 

[Hifin Sword]

This has been an exciting thread to read through. I prefer this thread to some other threads where a newby puts a G80 into a 4ft rocket and wonders why it exploded or landed in a different zip code.
, , ,

Thanks for the encouragement Ronz. I like to experiment and try new ways to do things. I'm not going for an altitude record or anything like that. Since rocketry is new to me, I'm not locked into how things are done. Ignorance may be dangerous here but I try to stay within what I think are common sense limits.

My main hobby is RC airplanes. I recently started building my own. The one below shows my inclination to try new things. It's my own design. The motors on that model are off a quad I crashed a few years ago. But they only run up to 3S LiPos. I've just added 4 new motors that supposedly run on 6S LiPos. But I will give it a flight in the next few weeks on 4S LiPos. Things are too busy before March for me right now.

I'm approaching rocketry the same way. Start with something I know a little about and try something new, but not radically different.
Don

 

[DigBaddy]

In the sim, I updated the fins and nosecone to more stock size and numbers; this pulled CP back toward what one would expect. I doubt many of the mass values are correct though. Sims on D12-3 and E12-6 are in there. I would still go minimum E20-4. Plotting flight side profiles show just how bad this wants to go sideways, just like your flight did.

Dial in the weights and positions if needed; probably easiest to just measure actual CG and weight and override the sustainer with those values; then add motors that will work. Also adjust your rod length in the sims.

You may want to get another BD kit and build it stock to get the feel for it and making sims that closely match the behavior of the rocket. Would be a good learning experience and much more safe.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Ronz, I've been to Oahu a few times while my brother-in-law was stationed there at Pearl. Went to the flying club somewhere on the east side of the island north of Waimanalo beach I think. But I never drove so not exactly sure where it was. Your launch site reminds me of some areas we passed along the north beach or even a clearing in Aiea at the bottom of the hill near where my sis lived.

That fireball going off was quite impressive! What does the "CR" and the "MM" mean?

Since I don't plan to use the remaining 2 E12-6s in my Bigger Daddy, I'll have to build another rocket that can go higher and deploy the chute safely at altitude instead of 50' off the ground. My Bigger Daddy seems to be a close relative of the Leviathan you built. I think a D12-3 motor in my Bigger Daddy will go higher than the C11-3 launch I did back in January. I think that will be the next launch of my Bigger Daddy.

Or, , , maybe I should try a RMS 24/40 E size motor with a shorter delay. My Bigger Daddy has the blocking piece from the spent C11 at about 4 inches in. That should allow me to get an RMS 24/40 casing into the motor tube. If I am able to use an RMS type reloadable motor, can I buy them already built, or do they only come as kits?

I'm thinking my BD arced over because the CG is too far back. I did an OPEN ROCKET build but can't figure out how to get a complete look at the build with a motor loaded. The only selection is "NO MOTOR". With a motor loaded in OR, the CG will move even further back. I'm guessing I will need to add some weight to the nose. Maybe an altimeter up there will add enough weight forward? I have plenty of lead weights from my RC model hobby I can use too. Any help on adding a motor to my OPEN ROCKET build would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Don

Centering ring and motor mount. After a while, we get too lazy to write these out.

I'd go with the Estes Vapor. It'll go up to 900ft on the E12-6.

RMS comes in kits. There's the initial cost for the case. If you lose the rocket, you lose the case.

I fixed the NC in the ork file. There's an Automatic button in the NC properties that will align it with the BT. What I do is weigh the completed rocket (using a food scale) and enter manually into the Stage weight and CG. I already put the current numbers into the Stage override so add the real numbers.

Ideally, you want the stability between 1.0 and 2.0. The higher the number, the more weathercocking. A longer rod/rail will prevent this. You can buy reasonable 6ft each at Grainger if you pick them up at the store. In the sim, the velocity off rod should be 40ft/s but 50 is preferred. I use the Flight side profile in the sim to see how straight it will fly.

I added the E20-4W (311ft) and E30-4T (424ft). W is white lightening and T is blue thunder (creates blue flash on pad and very quick). Personally, I like the F67-6W (839ft). The sim will tell you the optimal delay.

 

[Hifin Sword]

Thanks Ronz. I have a lot of reading and simulating to do. But I'm also going on vacation soon and the wife has lots of HONEY DOOS to get done first.

 

[Hifin Sword]

Ronz, after reading up on CG and CP, as you said, my rocket does want to weathervane into the wind. I didn't realize it during and after the flight until now. I can see it went upwind that day. So I don't need an altimeter in the nose for more weight, something I was considering, but less weight in the nose and/or more weight in the tail section. Since the extension is not glued to the bottom section of the body, I can remove the extension and NC, and put the altimeter in the lower section to add weight there. I found one on Amazon that weighs about 1/2 oz. It's 5/8" wide so it should fit in the body below the 24mm to 3" centering ring I put in there. Do you think this will help reduce the weathervaning?
Don
https://www.amazon.com/Estes-2246-A...pcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A2HG7KNUEK3HVB

 

[DigBaddy]

Adding weight, while still using underpowered motors, won't fix it. You'll have even lower speed off the rod/rail, which will most likely negate the improvement in CG/CP relationship.

That Estes altimeter isn't that great anyways.

 

[sriegel]

If you leave the clay nozzle in place, it will choke off the ejection gasses and potentially rupture the motor casing (or blow sideways through the gap between the motor and the casing above). You want a clear path forward of the ejection charge.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Ronz, after reading up on CG and CP, as you said, my rocket does want to weathervane into the wind. I didn't realize it during and after the flight until now. I can see it went upwind that day. So I don't need an altimeter in the nose for more weight, something I was considering, but less weight in the nose and/or more weight in the tail section. Since the extension is not glued to the bottom section of the body, I can remove the extension and NC, and put the altimeter in the lower section to add weight there. I found one on Amazon that weighs about 1/2 oz. It's 5/8" wide so it should fit in the body below the 24mm to 3" centering ring I put in there. Do you think this will help reduce the weathervaning?
Don
https://www.amazon.com/Estes-2246-A...pcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A2HG7KNUEK3HVB

There's a bit of hate on the Estes altimeters but I think they do the job well for $31. They last about 6 or 8 flights before the screen starts fading out. They'll burn up faster if you get them too close to the ejection.

Like DB said, adding weight to fix weathercocking is problematic. Adding a heavier motor might fix it or launching on a less windy day might help as the wind is less likely to push the fins. Basically, the rocket relies on the rod/rail to keep it pointing up until it can get up to speed. The composites (F67) have more push than the black powder (F15) do. As the motor is used up, that moves the CG forward and increases stability. These are all things to consider.

 

[cbwho]

Babar, I tried to blow off the NC by blowing into the tail exhaust end and only got it to pop off 1 out of 3 tries. I extended the blast tube higher so the bottom part of the NC would enclose it. I had to enlarge the hole in the NC so it would fit. I also added a plywood plate to the bottom of the NC to trap the gases so they wouldn't exit the sides. I should have done only one of those mods, but now it's done. I took the BD to my g/kids 3 hours away 2 weeks ago and gave it a try. I used my most powerful engine, a C11-3. But it wasn't powerful enough after adding all that weight. I should have used maybe a D12 or E-12 but I went with what I have on hand. Thankfully there wasn't any damage due to the ground being soft. Any recommendations on which 24mm engine to use?

If I build another Bigger Daddy, it will use 29mm engines.

The wooden washer doesn't do much as there is a hole in the middle. I recommend following the prior advice to cut the cone.

 

[Hifin Sword]

I haven't done anything since the 3 launches back in early April. But I was happy with the results. The wind weathervaned the rocket a little but the height was sufficient and the D12-3 kept the rocket within bounds of the area. The flat wooden circle for the base kept gases from escaping out of the slanted bottom, and fouling the NC separation. The hole in the middle of the NC base is for the exhaust gases to enter from the extended ejection tube and vent 100% of the gases into the NC. It seems to work well. By venting into the NC no hot gases scorch the chute, separation is assured and the chute will be pulled out. Bigger engines might be used in the future, but only on low or no wind days unless I'm in a much bigger area.
Don

 

[Art Upton]

I haven't done anything since the 3 launches back in early April. But I was happy with the results. The wind weathervaned the rocket a little but the height was sufficient and the D12-3 kept the rocket within bounds of the area. The flat wooden circle for the base kept gases from escaping out of the slanted bottom, and fouling the NC separation. The hole in the middle of the NC base is for the exhaust gases to enter from the extended ejection tube and vent 100% of the gases into the NC. It seems to work well. By venting into the NC no hot gases scorch the chute, separation is assured and the chute will be pulled out. Bigger engines might be used in the future, but only on low or no wind days unless I'm in a much bigger area.
Don

Those flights are very typical to BD flights I have flown on D12-3s with a breeze.
You might try the Estes VAPOR [I get them from hobby lobby] on C11s for straighter flight

You may recall that my flight with an F250 also flew into the breeze over the woods, popped a chute and fell in the Bog.

 

[Art Upton]

If you don't have a Hobby Lobby store in town you can order on line here:
https://www.acsupplyco.com/estes-vapor-model-rocket-kit?search=vapor
Also good prices for motors, and the small composites do not have a hasmat fee..

 

[Art Upton]

Next helpful hint.

An E12 is not twice the power of a D12. In fact it is much more like a D+ a few extra NS.
They can't make a Black Power "Full E" motor in the 24mm casing. Just like they cannot make a Full F in 29mm Black Powder.

That is why composite motors were crated for hobby rocketry about 1987ish that the public could get from AeroTech.
Keep in Mind QUEST motors are an Aerotech brand now as well for the smaller ones.

Total Newton Seconds tells you how much total power the motor has over time..
Average Newtons seconds like D12 shows that you have an Average of 12 NS over the full time of the burn.

As you saw, that E12-6 did get the rocket up there, just had the wrong delay time as too long.

Long story I can get nice E and F motors in composite that do not require Hazmat fees. Just got some yesterday, need to open the box up tomorrow.