Newbie 5000m

[Chris G]

Hello, ultimately my goal is to launch a rocket to around 5000m, 16400ft. Understanding that that's no easy task I'm interested to hear what steps folks would recommend to get there. I'm at Estes hobby rocket level of expertise so what would you say I need to build before I'm ready to take a shot at 5000m?! Thanks!

 

[Aeva]

Hiya, and welcome to TRF!!

That's a pretty bold goal, but doable. You should look through the HPR forum and get a sense of what it takes to send and recover a rocket from that altitude, or higher. You'll likely want to learn about the various flight computers, trackers, and recovery methods people use for flights like that and the various problems that might occur while using them. The other thing you need to figure out is whether your club is okay with you launching to that altitude (in areas where trees or neighbors don't like strangers recovering rockets from their yard, it might be a problem; and there may be other restrictions to the flight ceiling such as the waiver held by the club or the weather).

A few successes, maybe excessively more than what you need for your goals though:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/the-bobs-minimum-diameter-n1000-project.188688/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/build-thread-for-this-years-airfest.172206/

If you haven't already joined a club, that's a good place to start. Rocketeers love talking about their rockets, and it's a great place to learn lol. Start small to test your hardware and methods on an MPR, and build up confidence building and sending those rockets before you leap into the deep end with 16k flight. You'll likely need to get an HPR cert to get powerful enough motors to fly that high, but starting in MPR is cheaper and still offers a lot of the same experience as HPR flights.

Good luck!

 

[NTP2]

Hiya, and welcome to TRF!!

That's a pretty bold goal, but doable. You should look through the HPR forum and get a sense of what it takes to send and recover a rocket from that altitude, or higher. You'll likely want to learn about the various flight computers, trackers, and recovery methods people use for flights like that and the various problems that might occur while using them. The other thing you need to figure out is whether your club is okay with you launching to that altitude (in areas where trees or neighbors don't like strangers recovering rockets from their yard, it might be a problem; and there may be other restrictions to the flight ceiling such as the waiver held by the club or the weather).

A few successes, maybe excessively more than what you need for your goals though:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/the-bobs-minimum-diameter-n1000-project.188688/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/build-thread-for-this-years-airfest.172206/

If you haven't already joined a club, that's a good place to start. Rocketeers love talking about their rockets, and it's a great place to learn lol. Start small to test your hardware and methods on an MPR, and build up confidence building and sending those rockets before you leap into the deep end with 16k flight. You'll likely need to get an HPR cert to get powerful enough motors to fly that high, but starting in MPR is cheaper and still offers a lot of the same experience as HPR flights.

Good luck!

+1

a L2 is probably the cert you'll need, a L1 if you're really good at mass cutting.

 

[Wrightme43]

Well, my goal is 10,000' and Mach 1.
I highly recommend finding and reading the L3 certification submission thread. Each L3 requires a build and design submission. You will learn a ton there.

Since you are required to recover your rocket, to prove success, dual deploy experience is great idea to aquire.

I am finding the smaller around the more difficult packaging everything is. Also everything has mass, and mass eats energy.

I thought based on my orginal sims I would achieve my goal with my Drago3xl. It weighs 8lb, 6.4 ounces, ready to fly, no paint, no motor.

I planned on 7lbs.

It will take a L motor.

I am looking at the Transonic II from Hawk Mountain, for my next purchase.

 

[Hobie1dog]

 

[manixFan]

5000M in a minimum diameter 54mm rocket is very doable. A well built 54mm Go Devil, Mongoose, or Tomach will easily do it. The key is good surface prep when you mount the fins along with good fin fillets. I've built a number of such rockets that go well past 20,000' and don't use any tip-to-tip reinforcement. If you also want to go really fast, then carbon fiber fins are the answer, but that will add quite a bit to the expense.

Have fun and good luck,


Tony

 

[Chris G]

Thanks for the welcome and tips so far.

So I'm thinking I do something along the lines of starting with a basic 54mm MD rocket kit that uses can use readily available D, E, F motors (anyone have recommendations beyond Estes?), not caring much about altitude and use it as a development platform for avionics, cameras and recovery systems. Then once those systems are reliable, build for larger motors and higher velocities and shoot for higher alt?

How does that sound as a plan? And would anyone have a recommendation for a 54mm MD rocket kit that's relatively simple to assemble (I'm pretty good model maker so not too worried) and would be capable of fitting avionics and recovery systems that would be ultimately be used for a 10Km launch?

 

[Wrightme43]

With the utmost of respect, I would recommend you try something larger to start with, then work on dual deployment, then attempt to make minimum diameter. It really is incredibly difficult to fit everything, and some mistakes are almost impossible to repair or fix.

Little things can really bite you in the butt, and I promise there are lots of things I just don't know, and don't even know that I don't know them yet.

Learn from the mistakes and failures and successes of others, and enjoy the journey, and this is a great deal of fun. I want you to be very successful, and achieve your goal. It would be disappointing to fail, lose your investment, and possibly damage something, or someone, due to a unknown, unknown.

I hope this helps you.

Steve

 

[Aeva]

I'd personally suggest you start with something like a 38mm, not min-diameter, to avoid motor retention as an obstacle while you learn how to fly with electronics and dual deployment configurations. Make sure it has a reasonably spacious payload section so you can add dual deployment. Get a 29mm adapter so you can use it with a larger range of motors (MPR and HPR). Also, if you haven't constructed an HPR rocket, you might have some trouble if you try to follow manufacturer's build instructions (they're often unhelpful and there are many better ways to build for avionics and sturdiness that are not covered by them). Focus on the less lofty goal of learning first, and then move to the more challenging projects.

You might lose/damage the rocket (even if you do things 100% correctly, CATOs happen), or decide you want to rework the design. The 38mm motors are often easier to come by (a lot of people at clubs might have some to sell or trade) and 29mm adapter will allow you to use the MPR motors. You can also use it for your L1 cert. The fewer "new" parts and techniques on your rocket per iteration, the fewer things to understand/diagnose if it goes wrong. Build your main goal's rocket when you're more confident with your building and flying techniques.

 

[kramer714]

My suggestion is (2) rockets

1. Join a local club - lots in California (I fly with ROC and MDARS)
2. start with - Punisher SS https://wildmanrocketry.com/products/punisher-ss
   1. build it with a 38mm mount, fly it with a G reload (can adapt 38-29)
   2. Get a case and... fly it with an H - Level 1 cert flight
   3. modify the nose to take a flight computer and tracker
      1. fly it with an H use motor deploy AND flight computer
      2. figure out how and what kind of tracker to use, get comfortable with that - you will need it for the higher flight
      3. OPTION, have some fun with it, A J530 pushes it mach plus, and 2500M
3. Then... Punisher 3" https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/3-fiberglass/products/punisher-3-inch
   1. set it up for dual deploy and tracker - fly it a few times with an H, once you are comfortable with it...
   2. Fly it with a J - get your Level 2
   3. Fly it with a K, um not just a K but a really long one, like a K300 or a K1050 - should take you right to 5000M

 

[Azamiryou]

then attempt to make minimum diameter.

I was confused at first, but I suspect @Chris G meant MPR, not MD. Is there even such a thing as a 54mm D motor?

 

[Wrightme43]

I was confused at first, but I suspect @Chris G meant MPR, not MD. Is there even such a thing as a 54mm D motor?

I could of misunderstood, but I think they want to build a 54mm MD rocket.

 

[OzHybrid]

Join a club where people are doing the kind of launch you're thinking of.
The location of the club is important. Clubs that have a high waiver will tend to be in cloudless-ish locations. You need to have visibility of your rocket(must not launch through cloud)
Cloud comes in at 3-5000ft. If it's really cloudy you cannot launch above that(50%cloud cover rule)
Make friends with someone who is doing something similar to what you want to do.
To be able to purchase the motor you'll need to get to 5000m, you'll need to get at least a L2 certification.
The certification procedures are documented on the NAR and Tripoli websites Tripoli.org. Membership gives you insurance coverage. Tripoli does experimental motor launches. NAR does not.
Good luck with your journey.

 

[Azamiryou]

I could of misunderstood, but I think they want to build a 54mm MD rocket.

That is what they said, but they also said D, E, and F motors, so something doesn't fit:

a basic 54mm MD rocket kit that uses can use readily available D, E, F motors

 

[Art Upton]

Here is a NICE 54mm diameter kit with 38mm motor mount, to get experience with Mid-Power motors and trackers. Then use larger H and I when you get L1 to get more experience. This kit flies great on a variety of F and G 29mm motors using the optional MMA-2 38mm to 29mm motor mount adapter.

https://locprecision.com/products/vulcanite-h76

To get to 5000 Meters, then you upscale this to a 3" rocket with a 54mm motor mount.

 

[boatgeek]

I'm going to go a step further than most of the other people in this thread. I would suggest building at least three rockets to get to your goal from basic Estes kits. It wouldn't be a bad thing to add a fourth (54mm-3" cardboard rocket with a 29mm motor mount) to practice HPR style building with a rocket that's still cheap to fly on F and G motors. This set of steps will help you build skills in relatively low-stress ways. A 54mm fiberglass minimum diameter rocket has a lot of things that are hard to build. Taking it in steps lets you practice on lower stakes rockets.

Rocket 1: 3" or 4" cardboard rocket with a 38mm motor mount. A LOC DX3 is the classic for this, but really any rocket designed for HPR and for dual deploy is fine. Use this rocket for:
- L1 certification
- Practice building with epoxy (yes, I know you can do it with wood glue, we're building skills!)
- First practice with trackers and dual deploy (a 4" avionics sled with two altimeters and a tracker is an order of magnitude easier than a 54mm one)
- Fly without the upper body tube on smaller motors
- L2 certification if you don't do it on Rocket 2
- Have fun!

Rocket 2: 54mm fiberglass rocket with a 38mm motor mount. Kit or scratch build, your choice. Use this for:
- L2 certification if you don't use Rocket 1
- Practice building pretty with epoxy. Your first epoxy fillets will be ugly. These ones will be nicer.
- Before the L2, practice fitting electronics into a smaller package
- Low flights to get comfortable with your tracking and dual deploy skills, then moving up to larger motors to make sure you're comfortable with tracking a rocket out of sight
- Have fun!

Rocket 3: Minimum diameter 54mm fiberglass rocket. Shake down on smaller motors to catch any bugs, then go for the gusto and try to hit 5k meters.

The absolutely most critical step at each stage is the last one. If you're not having fun, do something different, hopefully in the rocketry hobby.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I was confused at first, but I suspect @Chris G meant MPR, not MD. Is there even such a thing as a 54mm D motor?

Minimum Diameter.

Not to be a downer but RV's most popular videos are samples of what can go wrong if things are rushed. Each failure is potentially a very expensive mishap and usually leading to total destruction of the rocket. I'm not saying it's impossible, just rather pricey. This can be mitigated by finding a mentor who can take the time to walk you through everything from L1 to L3. Also, the difference between science and messing around is documenting your progress and hopefully creating a video.

 

[Art Upton]

FYI, opening door number three again...You don't need Dual Deploy using Chute Cannons anymore.

Getting experience on using the Jolly Logic Chute Release [JLCR] on a rocket like a Vulcanite on F & G motors is valuable and applies directly to getting a rocket to 5000 meters.

go thru some You Tubes on the JLCR

 

[Chris G]

Thank you all for the inputs, super helpful.

Azamiryou, I'm clearly flying a bit blind here with use of terminology and knowing what rockets would which what size motors so appreciate the guidance!

Wrightme43, Aeva, Kramer, OzHybrid, Art, Boatgeek, Ronz, thank you for the suggestions.

I'll certainly follow the advise to start with a larger diameter rocket and consider the options for recovery. I'll be back with an update and probably plenty of questions.

 

[Chris G]

I'm going to go a step further than most of the other people in this thread. I would suggest building at least three rockets to get to your goal from basic Estes kits. It wouldn't be a bad thing to add a fourth (54mm-3" cardboard rocket with a 29mm motor mount) to practice HPR style building with a rocket that's still cheap to fly on F and G motors. This set of steps will help you build skills in relatively low-stress ways. A 54mm fiberglass minimum diameter rocket has a lot of things that are hard to build. Taking it in steps lets you practice on lower stakes rockets.

Rocket 1: 3" or 4" cardboard rocket with a 38mm motor mount. A LOC DX3 is the classic for this, but really any rocket designed for HPR and for dual deploy is fine. Use this rocket for:
- L1 certification
- Practice building with epoxy (yes, I know you can do it with wood glue, we're building skills!)
- First practice with trackers and dual deploy (a 4" avionics sled with two altimeters and a tracker is an order of magnitude easier than a 54mm one)
- Fly without the upper body tube on smaller motors
- L2 certification if you don't do it on Rocket 2
- Have fun!

Rocket 2: 54mm fiberglass rocket with a 38mm motor mount. Kit or scratch build, your choice. Use this for:
- L2 certification if you don't use Rocket 1
- Practice building pretty with epoxy. Your first epoxy fillets will be ugly. These ones will be nicer.
- Before the L2, practice fitting electronics into a smaller package
- Low flights to get comfortable with your tracking and dual deploy skills, then moving up to larger motors to make sure you're comfortable with tracking a rocket out of sight
- Have fun!

Rocket 3: Minimum diameter 54mm fiberglass rocket. Shake down on smaller motors to catch any bugs, then go for the gusto and try to hit 5k meters.

The absolutely most critical step at each stage is the last one. If you're not having fun, do something different, hopefully in the rocketry hobby.

This is exactly what I was after, thank you!

 

[Chris G]

My suggestion is (2) rockets

1. Join a local club - lots in California (I fly with ROC and MDARS)
2. start with - Punisher SS https://wildmanrocketry.com/products/punisher-ss
   1. build it with a 38mm mount, fly it with a G reload (can adapt 38-29)
   2. Get a case and... fly it with an H - Level 1 cert flight
   3. modify the nose to take a flight computer and tracker
      1. fly it with an H use motor deploy AND flight computer
      2. figure out how and what kind of tracker to use, get comfortable with that - you will need it for the higher flight
      3. OPTION, have some fun with it, A J530 pushes it mach plus, and 2500M
3. Then... Punisher 3" https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/3-fiberglass/products/punisher-3-inch
   1. set it up for dual deploy and tracker - fly it a few times with an H, once you are comfortable with it...
   2. Fly it with a J - get your Level 2
   3. Fly it with a K, um not just a K but a really long one, like a K300 or a K1050 - should take you right to 5000M

This is awesome too, thanks

 

[Wrightme43]

Sir, two year ago I had no idea that High Power Rocketry existed. All I knew was estes rockets and have never launched anything larger than a C6-7.


You will have a blast!

 

[Azamiryou]

Azamiryou, I'm clearly flying a bit blind here with use of terminology and knowing what rockets would which what size motors so appreciate the guidance!
...
I'll certainly follow the advise to start with a larger diameter rocket

MD means minimum diameter — the tube is just large enough to hold the motor, and there's no separate motor mount tube. A low power (LPR) example would be Estes Viking, Wizard, Yankee, Mosquito, etc. A 54mm MD rocket would take 54mm motors. I don't think that was what you meant, is it?

MPR is mid-power rocketry, basically the large and powerful end of model rockets, but not big enough to be high power (HPR).

54 mm diameter is plenty large enough for MPR — just put in a smaller motor mount like 29mm for Estes' biggest motors, 38mm for bigger composite motors, or even go down to 24mm for Estes' D and small E motors if the rocket is light enough.

 

[lr64]

Hello, ultimately my goal is to launch a rocket to around 5000m, 16400ft. Understanding that that's no easy task I'm interested to hear what steps folks would recommend to get there. I'm at Estes hobby rocket level of expertise so what would you say I need to build before I'm ready to take a shot at 5000m?! Thanks!

OR thinks that a light, minimum diameter (29mm) rocket with an altimeter and using an H14ST could make it to about 5,000 meters. You WOULD have to make sure everything was very straight, and maybe use a fairly long rail, to keep things as straight as possible during the 18 second burn. This would be a subsonic flight at a bit over Mach 0.8, so it might not require as many HP techniques as a faster rocket. OR's total impulse for the motor is a little less than Aerotech's spec, so maybe it would exceed 5,000 meters by a bit.

You could use a lot more impulse and still not exceed the requirements of Level 1. Maybe use a booster or a cluster or something.

Well, my goal is 10,000' and Mach 1.
snip

Do you have to do both with the 1 rocket, or can you use 2? Openrocket seems to think that a Scout with a D21 can go supersonic, although Openrocket may not be the best tool for transonic and supersonic flight. OR estimates that it would only get up to about 3,000 feet. You'd probably need a tiny radio beacon if you ever wanted to see it again. But I doubt if you can find a light and small enough altimeter, capable of measuring over 100 g's, to keep it over Mach 1. You could always loft another rocket first, to 1,000 feet or so, with a microphone and a recorder, to detect the sonic boom. Or maybe someone could do something with doppler and triangulation. OR also says an Alpha with an F44, which is fatter than the stock size but which could still fit in the body tube, could do the job. Possibly with an altimeter on board, which would NOT have to record more than 100 g's. Of course, this might require a bit of extra effort to install stuff, and you might have to give the fins a carbon spar or something. Not hard to do, though.

To get to 10,000 feet, it seems that you might be able to use the 29mm rocket above, with only a G8ST. Same caveat about keeping everything straight.

Note that these tasks don't require hpr certification, if I'm not mistaken.

----------
If you guys would rather have more noise and spend more money, or you can't deal with the smaller sizes, you can disregard the above.

 

[terryg]

To be honest, you have at least a year or two of building and flying rockets before you be able to succeed in your stated goal. Enjoy the journey, it is a lot fun and quite rewarding.

 

[OzHybrid]

OR thinks that a light, minimum diameter (29mm) rocket with an altimeter and using an H14ST could make it to about 5,000 meters. You WOULD have to make sure everything was very straight, and maybe use a fairly long rail, to keep things as straight as possible during the 18 second burn. This would be a subsonic flight at a bit over Mach 0.8, so it might not require as many HP techniques as a faster rocket. OR's total impulse for the motor is a little less than Aerotech's spec, so maybe it would exceed 5,000 meters by a bit.

You could use a lot more impulse and still not exceed the requirements of Level 1. Maybe use a booster or a cluster or something.

Do you have to do both with the 1 rocket, or can you use 2? Openrocket seems to think that a Scout with a D21 can go supersonic, although Openrocket may not be the best tool for transonic and supersonic flight. OR estimates that it would only get up to about 3,000 feet. You'd probably need a tiny radio beacon if you ever wanted to see it again. But I doubt if you can find a light and small enough altimeter, capable of measuring over 100 g's, to keep it over Mach 1. You could always loft another rocket first, to 1,000 feet or so, with a microphone and a recorder, to detect the sonic boom. Or maybe someone could do something with doppler and triangulation. OR also says an Alpha with an F44, which is fatter than the stock size but which could still fit in the body tube, could do the job. Possibly with an altimeter on board, which would NOT have to record more than 100 g's. Of course, this might require a bit of extra effort to install stuff, and you might have to give the fins a carbon spar or something. Not hard to do, though.

To get to 10,000 feet, it seems that you might be able to use the 29mm rocket above, with only a G8ST. Same caveat about keeping everything straight.

Note that these tasks don't require hpr certification, if I'm not mistaken.

----------
If you guys would rather have more noise and spend more money, or you can't deal with the smaller sizes, you can disregard the above.

I think the OP( original poster) just wants to have a goal and get there. Rather than go for a really difficult challenge of getting to 5000m with the minimum possible impulse.
Technically you're correct. It's possible. But if you look at the number of people who've attempted that route it indicates there's a high degree of difficulty. Adrian, for example is cutting bits off the electronics circuit boards and redesigning them specifically for his attempts to get them to fit in.... Not really a new rocketeer skill level. But possible......

 

[lr64]

There are electronics that fit in 29 mm body tubes, aren't there? These are some fairly simple rockets I'm looking at.

If someone wants redundant deployment and GPS instead of a radio beacon, and so on, a bigger rocket is probably required.

OTOH, I sometimes look at people's model airplanes and wonder how they made them so heavy, so I might have a different perspective. IMHO, weight savings is about being stubborn and patient more than it is a matter of talent. When I look at rockets, I wonder why they're made so heavy, though part of the answer is that the rocket may go somewhat higher with more weight if using a short burn, but powerful motor. If the default materials are cardboard, ABS, and G10, with 3 coats of Rustoleum, weight savings shouldn't be all that tough to achieve.

OP has SOME experience with rockets already. If "Estes hobby rocket level" includes some actual building, then maybe this isn't so unrealistic. Particularly if OP has built other things.

 

[Art Upton]

There is Theoretical Rocketry, and Practical Rocketry ; much like Physics

If records were easy, folks would not be trying so hard to get them, multiple times and attempts

I don't think the OP is trying to do a record setting type rocket, just an awesome goal.

It took me some time to get 3 miles high, and I was not even trying to go for that. I was simply going for + 1000mph in my Avatar rocket and the altitude came with it.

It would have been easier in a smaller diameter rocket and a motor that cost much less to get to 3 miles high.

 

[OverTheTop]

Welcome to the Forum .

As some others have suggested upthread, consider a 54mm rocket with a 38mm motor mount. You can get plenty of experience with it, even DD or chute release. The two diameters mean the fins will be through-the-wall, which makes for a very robust fincan. There will be a reasonable amount of room for electronics and recovery too. 38mm motors don't hurt the wallet as much either.

Go along to a club launch and ask lots of questions too. You will enjoy the experience.

Just my $0.02 worth...

 

[Wrightme43]

OR thinks that a light, minimum diameter (29mm) rocket with an altimeter and using an H14ST could make it to about 5,000 meters. You WOULD have to make sure everything was very straight, and maybe use a fairly long rail, to keep things as straight as possible during the 18 second burn. This would be a subsonic flight at a bit over Mach 0.8, so it might not require as many HP techniques as a faster rocket. OR's total impulse for the motor is a little less than Aerotech's spec, so maybe it would exceed 5,000 meters by a bit.

You could use a lot more impulse and still not exceed the requirements of Level 1. Maybe use a booster or a cluster or something.

Do you have to do both with the 1 rocket, or can you use 2? Openrocket seems to think that a Scout with a D21 can go supersonic, although Openrocket may not be the best tool for transonic and supersonic flight. OR estimates that it would only get up to about 3,000 feet. You'd probably need a tiny radio beacon if you ever wanted to see it again. But I doubt if you can find a light and small enough altimeter, capable of measuring over 100 g's, to keep it over Mach 1. You could always loft another rocket first, to 1,000 feet or so, with a microphone and a recorder, to detect the sonic boom. Or maybe someone could do something with doppler and triangulation. OR also says an Alpha with an F44, which is fatter than the stock size but which could still fit in the body tube, could do the job. Possibly with an altimeter on board, which would NOT have to record more than 100 g's. Of course, this might require a bit of extra effort to install stuff, and you might have to give the fins a carbon spar or something. Not hard to do, though.

To get to 10,000 feet, it seems that you might be able to use the 29mm rocket above, with only a G8ST. Same caveat about keeping everything straight.

Note that these tasks don't require hpr certification, if I'm not mistaken.

----------
If you guys would rather have more noise and spend more money, or you can't deal with the smaller sizes, you can disregard the above.

The goal is one rocket, same launch.
This one may achieve it with a 54mm L motor. However it still has ground tests, paint, and shakedown to go. Along with buying a L motor rated case.
The largest motor I have launched so far is a K550.

I am going to see how it goes.

I have a wildman Jr, dual deploy kit with a 38mm motor mount to build later.

Packaging, and mounting really becomes a issue as things get smaller.

I know it can be, and has been done. @Adrian A has just amazed me.

There are many threads on here, of amazing design, and execution. It just is much harder than it looks.