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[Red_Leader]

Hello all, I’m a high school student looking to build some rockets from scratch. I’ve already had some experience with dangerous chemicals, Estes rockets, and homemade rocket fuel. I’ve made gunpowder, nitrocellulose, zinc sulfur powder, and r-candy. I found the Richard Nakka site the other day and started messing around with the SRM excel program. What I’m wondering is, what would be a good first proof of concept rocket build just to get an idea of what I’m doing? What size engine, what fuel, materials? Thanks in advance!

 

[boatgeek]

#1 the most important thing you can do is to get a mentor. Making rocket motors is hazardous, and you need to understand how to mitigate that risk before you burn down your house (or worse). Seriously, go to your closest Tripoli club and get a mentor before you start mixing any more motors. Every major rocket motor manufacturer has burned down at least once. If it happened to them, it can easily happen to you. Learning how to mix motors off of YouTube is like learning to drive watching NASCAR videos.

On a distant second, I'd recommend a 54mm cardboard rocket made with thick wall tubing (eg from LOC, though there are many manufacturers) and a 29mm motor mount. That will be a good size compromise for mid-power and the edge of high power motors. Kit or scratch-built doesn't really matter, just depends on what you want to do.

Also, don't discount using commercial motors. There is an awful lot to learn even if you're buying motors. Many of those things (especially successful recovery) will make your experience flying your own research motors much more rewarding.

 

[Red_Leader]

Thank you for the advice. I will try and contact a club. I have definitely considered the risks and dangers of rocketry. My chemistry and physics teachers are very intelligent and they have been sponsoring my projects. They kept me from doing anything stupid. On a side note, what fuel would you recommend? I would assume a 65/35 KNO sugar mix. I heard that the dry powder mix is a much worse fuel than the melted version, is this true?

 

[boatgeek]

Thank you for the advice. I will try and contact a club. I have definitely considered the risks and dangers of rocketry. My chemistry and physics teachers are very intelligent and they have been sponsoring my projects. They kept me from doing anything stupid. On a side note, what fuel would you recommend? I would assume a 65/35 KNO sugar mix. I heard that the dry powder mix is a much worse fuel than the melted version, is this true?

I don’t know the right mix because I don’t do sugar motors myself. That’s exactly the kind of thing you need a mentor for. Also, your posts will get deleted if they have fuel formulas. That belongs in the research forum.

 

[Handeman]

You are really asking about two different things here, building rockets and building motors.

For the most part, the rockets we build can use a variety of motors. Very few people design or build rockets for one size or type of motor. What is probably the hardest is to design a rocket that flies well on a large range of motors (more then two motor letter designation).

The suggestion to build a 2.6" rocket with a 29mm MMT is a good idea if you are starting. It will allow you to fly with E - H motors. The problem with designing for that range is that an H is 8 times as powerful as an E. That may not sound like much, but in practical terms it means 500 ft to 3500 ft altitude differences. That doesn't take into account supersonic speeds and those design considerations. Also "flying the field" comes into play if you're at a smaller site.

When it comes to making motors, the APCP motors are what I think are the easiest to make. The whole idea of heating and melting a mix of sugar loaded with oxidizer just doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Motor making is another whole field of rocketry that can be a hobby onto itself.

I like and want to encourage your enthusiasm and desire to learn. That is a great thing and don't lose it. Many of the posts here are going to want to talk you down and tell you to start simple and small. That is also not a bad thing because safety is a large concern. As was suggested, get to a local club launch, listen and learn! There are an amazing number of very smart and experience people that can help you along the way. You will find most of them are the ones running the launches.

My suggestion would be start with using commercial motors and learn rocket design and construction and what all goes into that.

 

[OverTheTop]

Hi RL. Welcome to the forum.

As others have said, making motors is a risky business. I won't bang on about it because others have covered that aspect in their posts. The important thing is that you really listen to what they have said.

As for designing rockets, you can pick up a book, perhaps at the local library (ask if they can buy one if they don't already have any!), and learn about constructions techniques and important things like stability. The Handbook of Model Rocketry by Stine is often recommended. There are others.

There is a simulator program called Open Rocket for designing rockets and proving they will fly stably. I suggest you dive in there, after a little of the earlier mentioned reading. I would suggest using some commercial motors purchased at the local hobby stores to get you off the ground first. They have been designed with your success in mind. You might even want to pick up a kit while you are there to have some fun with.

 

[Red_Leader]

Thanks guys! I have had a fair amount of experience with model rockets and commercial motors. I’m kind of thinking of doing the reverse of what you are saying. Instead of building a rocket and using commercial motors, I was thinking of using commercial rockets and homemade motors. I’ll probably end up doing both and combining them later after lots of testing. It seems that safety is the number one concern in rocketry from what I’ve read. As stated earlier, I have already made nitrocellulose, which requires a lot of safety precautions. I’m not saying I’m qualified to make rocket motors, but I do have a pretty good idea of the necessary precautions. Also as already stated, I have two extremely intelligent teachers to supervise my experiments. If any of what I’m saying sounds like I’m discarding any of the advice given, please don’t think that. I really value advice and mentoring. Here’s two more questions

1. What should I be the most concerned about when it comes to making R candy motors?

2. I don’t need any licensing for A-C class motors right?

 

[Zeus-cat]

Do your teachers have actual experience making motors? If not, although intelligent, they shouldn't be helping you to make motors. Intelligence and practical knowledge are two different things. You need people with practical knowledge of making motors. Period. And if you aren't an adult, then your teachers aren't intelligent, they are morons. They are opening themselves up to tremendous liability helping a student mix hazardous chemicals.

 

[Red_Leader]

My physics teacher has proficient knowledge in all manor of pyrotechnics. Anything from bombs to cannons and even models rockets. So I would say he has practical knowledge.

 

[DaveW6DPS]

1. What should I be the most concerned about when it comes to making R candy motors?

2. I don’t need any licensing for A-C class motors right?

1. You should be concerned with seriously injuring yourself or others, or casing some serious destruction.

2. For building your own motors you should be an adult who is certified for level 2 high power by the Tripoli Rocketry Association. Legal requirements vary by state and local laws and ordinances.

Making your own motors is not the place to start.

 

[grouch]

Me smells a troll.

 

[rharshberger]

Me smells a troll.

+1

 

[dhbarr]

If you have a pyro-experienced adult handy, explain to them how much zinc-sulfur you made and the method you used. If they don't recommend you not do that again, I recommend you get a new mentor.

Local rocketry clubs are a great place to fly commercial while you develop those kinds of relationships.

 

[Zeus-cat]

My physics teacher has proficient knowledge in all manor of pyrotechnics. Anything from bombs to cannons and even models rockets. So I would say he has practical knowledge.

I wouldn't say that he has practical knowledge based on what you said. Does he know how to make rocket motors from first hand experience?

And again, if you aren't an adult he is a fool to help you make motors.

 

[Red_Leader]

If you have a pyro-experienced adult handy, explain to them how much zinc-sulfur you made and the method you used. If they don't recommend you not do that again, I recommend you get a new mentor.

Local rocketry clubs are a great place to fly commercial while you develop those kinds of relationships.

I get where your coming from as far as a zinc-sulfur mix is concerned. We made it outside with full protective gear and used non static tools. Also we only made it in 10g batches. We didn’t use it as fuel or as an explosive, we only used it as a non contained flash powder with fuses.

After thinking about everyone’s advice, here is my game plan.

1. Get in contact with a club official and talk about local regulations, rocket design, and motor making

2. Design a Rocket in Open Rocket and use a commercial motor.

3. After research and mentoring from professionals, move on to research of experimental motors

4. Use my motor in my Rocket

Does this seem like a logical order of advancement?

 

[dhbarr]

These are great and reasonable plans. The sticking point may be age, but you're unlikely to regret the building and the flying in any case.

 

[Red_Leader]

These are great and reasonable plans. The sticking point may be age, but you're unlikely to regret the building and the flying in any case.

I don’t think age will be a problem if everything is ‘registered’ or ‘licensed’ under either my dad or teachers name.

 

[Nytrunner]

The NAR Jr. Level 1 cert and Tripoli Mentor Program are the avenues for a sub18 individual to flight high power motors or work on higher power projects under the supervision of your sponsor (an experienced and certified high power flier)