# New Subforum Proposal

## Should there be a new Space Launch subforum?

• ### No

• Total voters
26

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
As a follow-up on this thread, I'm starting a poll to gauge interest in an "Amateur Space Launch" subforum. This would be geared not just to news but also to technical discussion of how it can be, might be, and has been done. I guess this would be in the "Advanced Rocketry Topics" section.

Even if it's unlikely any given one of us will do this, or be on a team doing it (though you never know) it could be that some of us have worthwhile ideas to contribute. And surely lots of us would find it interesting.

#### JCRL

##### Well-Known Member
I think that this is a fantastic idea! The Space Launch subforum could become a great repository for information and practical know-how about getting rockets into space. Like Joe said above, not everyone will be building these rockets (individually or part of a team) but we can still help others find the tools to achieve a space shot. It could also be a great place for members to discuss scientific payloads intended for space, or experimental hardware and software builds that a member might want to put on a space-capable rocket. I see this as a wonderful opportunity to push the boundaries of the hobby as we watch the "commercial space race" unfold.

#### Mushtang

TRF Supporter
Just curious, what sort of topics would the threads have? Give some examples. I'm trying to understand what kinds of things would be in that subforum that wouldn't fit elsewhere.

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
Some of what fits there certainly could fit elsewhere. The benefit to those things would be collecting them in a common place so that they're easier to find if you know that space launch is what you're looking for. Those would include things that could reasonably go in HPR among the build threads and motor discussions.
• Design and construction for the extreme speed if you use CSXT's method.
• Special considerations for extreme altitude; corona killing your avionics is the one that leaps to mind.
• Is staging at altitude more difficult than low, if you don't go with CSXT's method?
• Guidance and tracking and how they might be different at 70 miles than at 7 miles or 7000 feet.
• Potential regulatory issues.
Other things would come up that really aren't about HPR but are about space missions, i.e. why someone is doing an amateur space launch (apart from the glory)
• Cameras that keep working; see corona.
• Observations/experiments that could be done up there on an amateur budget and platform.
• Stabilizing said platform to conduct such experiments or observations.
These are off the top of my head, may not be good examples, and are certainly are not the only examples. Is that worth opening a new subforum? That's why I started s survey.

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
The key would be if you had sufficient people in the know participating.
So you gotta ask yourself if those few key people are likely to provide the quality and quantity of content you envision?

#### cerving

##### Owner, Eggtimer Rocketry
TRF Supporter
I like the idea, but I could see it being used as troll bait... "I just flew my first Estes rocket on The Mighty D, and I think I'm ready to fly into space..."

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
Count how many active posters have tried..........

#### Nytrunner

##### Pop lugs, not drugs
Unless we're talking staging many commercial motors, the motor or engine technology and techniques will have to go in the research forum anyway.

#### JCRL

##### Well-Known Member
Nytrunner, can you point me in the direction of the research forum? Is it only open to TRF supporters?

#### JCRL

##### Well-Known Member
The key would be if you had sufficient people in the know participating.
So you gotta ask yourself if those few key people are likely to provide the quality and quantity of content you envision?
Maybe it's a "If you build it, they will come" situation.

#### Peartree

##### Cyborg Rocketeer
Staff member
Global Mod
Nytrunner, can you point me in the direction of the research forum? Is it only open to TRF supporters?
Scroll down the main forum until you find "Advanced Topics" There, you will find a subforum entitled something like [Restricted] Research Forum. In order to gain access to that forum you must be at least L1 certified through NAR or TRA and apply for access as described in the Rules (under the Watering Hole sticky)

TRF now hosts a restricted forum related to Research Motors. Requirements for access are:

1) NAR or TRA senior member
2) US Person (US Citizen or US Permanent Resident (Green Card Holder))
3) High Power Certification (Level 1, 2 or 3)

4. Are you a US citizen (required),
5. You must also attach a scan or picture of your current NAR or TRA Membership card, that shows HPR certification. A picture of the card taken with a digital camera or phone is fine, as long as the card image is legible.

Please allow up to a week for access to be granted -- we're all volunteers and things come up.

Please do not include scans of identification cards (driver's license, passport, etc)

If you are a parent/legal guardian/older sibling of someone who does not qualify for access, allowing someone otherwise not eligible for access to use your account to access the Research forum will result in permanent loss of access to the Research forum.

#### solid_fuel

Should/would this forum be restricted like the research forum?

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
I think not. The Research forum deals with motor chemistry and construction in particular. And yes, noncommercial motors would surely be involved in any amateur space launch, but I don't see why discussions about (just out of my backside) staging from a P10000 to a P4000 with sustainer ignition 15 seconds after booster burnout should be restricted, so long as the making of those motors is left in Research.

#### solid_fuel

I think not. The Research forum deals with motor chemistry and construction in particular. And yes, noncommercial motors would surely be involved in any amateur space launch, but I don't see why discussions about (just out of my backside) staging from a P10000 to a P4000 with sustainer ignition 15 seconds after booster burnout should be restricted, so long as the making of those motors is left in Research.
I was thinking more to do with any active guidance and maybe use of motors greater than O impulse might have some ITAR restrictions. I am definitely just talking out of my backside though.

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
I would think that technology that enables space flight is not without export "issues" so I would at a minimum restrict access if I were the forum owner.
But I don't own the forum, I'm not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express so take this advice for what you paid for it.

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
I don't own the forum, I'm not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express so take this advice for what you paid for it.
Well, all that's true for me too. I have worked in aerospace for many years and had mandated ITAR training over and over, as delivered by four different employers (but only three different corporations). What I can tell you is that, while information alone can be considered an export, anything that's already available in general publications, including text books, is not subject to ITAR regulations. So there should be no worry over the ideas that rocket motors over 40960 Ns exist and are useful for space launches, corona discharge is a concern when the air is very thin but not yet gone, and such.

#### JCRL

##### Well-Known Member
But I don't own the forum, I'm not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express so take this advice for what you paid for it.
I am a lawyer so I could look into this if it would be helpful.

#### mikec

##### Well-Known Member
corona discharge is a concern when the air is very thin but not yet gone
At high voltages that probably don't apply for most modern electronics.

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
I've seen the video at 70 Vdc, which admittedly is higher than amateurs are likely to be using. As air density decreases from "normal" the minimum voltage for corona decreases until that density is very near zero, at which point it increases again sharply. At the minimum I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see that voltage go as low as 12.

And this is way off topic. Is it worth having a subforum that's the intended home of threads like one in which this is the topic?

#### Angie

Staff member
Global Mod
And this is way off topic. Is it worth having a subforum that's the intended home of threads like one in which this is the topic?
Usually these are in the Support forum as that's where running of the site and help questions are found most easily. I just found this and the original thread due to someone letting me know about it. So, requesting a new forum is usually in Support Forum.

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
Sorry. When Tim said to start a poll he didn't say where. I'll remember (if there's a) next time.

#### Richard Dierking

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I'm in support of the sub-forum on this topic. There are things specific to this topic, like advanced GPS tracking, obtaining launch approvals and sites, and how about high altitude airstart, deployment, and recovery. The challenges are unique. Yes, they are related to things like HP rocketry, but info relating to high altitude flights/space attempts is a bit scattered around the forum, and the subject comes up in various ways from time to time. For example, student or university space programs and recently, Passing the Karman Line. Which brings up the certification requirement for this topic. Some people (like college students) have a lot of knowledge and interest in this subject but don't have HP certifications.
It's possible that people on this forum will share valuable information about amateur space flight and can collaborate and perhaps even become members of a team doing something like this.
I've wondered how useful this forum is for finding specific information. If there's a specific topic for it, there's a good chance you can find useful information. The medium is linear, yet can branch and come back many times and this alone makes it difficult to follow a particular subject at times. Sometimes it can go so far OT it never comes back. So, presently, if you are interested in amateur space flights, you could spend a lot of time finding this information on this forum. I believe creating the sub-topic would help.

#### Simon Auty

##### Member
We have few legal restrictions on amateur rocketry here in New Zealand so restricting to L1 certification would preclude some people like us (who don’t have a legal registration requirement) and others from participating
I’d definitely follow a sub forum like this as one day I would like to be part of a team that does go for a space shot

#### JCRL

##### Well-Known Member
We have few legal restrictions on amateur rocketry here in New Zealand

I’d definitely follow a sub forum like this as one day I would like to be part of a team that does go for a space shot
Do you get to see Rocket Lab launches from where you are?

#### jsdemar

##### Well-Known Member
Based on my past experience with lists and forums talking about Space shots, you will see two groups of active participants:
One group that wants to learn but would unlikely get involved in a real project anytime $oon; and another group that thinks they know the answers and will mislead the first group (unintentionally). People who have thought about a Space Shot for a long time and understand the challenges will not participate. If they do, they will be reluctant to give detailed answers, either because they don't want to risk an ITAR violation and/or because they consider the information proprietary. If you're serious about higher-end amateur rocketry and Space startups, join the Arocket list. http://www.arocketry.net/forum.html The archives are searchable and quite valuable. Many of the participants eventually started commercial rocket ventures or went on the work for NewSpace companies. There's a lot of noise and side-topic ramblings there. Some members have a wide range of professional backgrounds, including working for NASA and big aerospace, flown payloads, and have written about the history of Spaceflight. Then there are some that just like to ramble, like anywhere else. ;-) #### Simon Auty ##### Member Do you get to see Rocket Lab launches from where you are? About a days drive away planning to go if there are any while I’m on leave in the new year #### FredA ##### Well-Known Member Based on my past experience with lists and forums talking about Space shots, you will see two groups of active participants: One group that wants to learn but would unlikely get involved in a real project anytime$oon;
and another group that thinks they know the answers and will mislead the first group (unintentionally).
Yup, this, plus the follow-on about those really doing not disclosing, was what I was implying.....

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
Based on my past experience with lists and forums talking about Space shots, you will see two groups of active participants:
One group that wants to learn but would unlikely get involved in a real project anytime \$oon;
and another group that thinks they know the answers and will mislead the first group (unintentionally).
People who have thought about a Space Shot for a long time and understand the challenges will not participate. If they do, they will be reluctant to give detailed answers, either because they don't want to risk an ITAR violation and/or because they consider the information proprietary.
I really want to disagree with that. But I'm not so sure I can. I have found this to be one of the best forum sites/communities for knowledgeable, competent people sharing worthwhile knowledge, so I'm hopeful. But I guess I don't have any concrete reason to be confident.
If you're serious about higher-end amateur rocketry and Space startups, join the Arocket list. http://www.arocketry.net/forum.html
I'll have to check them out.

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
For example -- there were 16 C-3 launches at Balls this year -- how many are documented? How many are documented here?

2