New Rocket and Airliner incident reported

[Mikus]

You're assuming it was APCP propellant. I'm pretty sure Hamas uses sugar based propellant. I'm not saying that's who I think it is but it's not impossible.

While I agree completely with you, I think it's silly to believe members of any legislative body will make any kind of distinction between propellants.

1) They won't know the difference between propellants.

2) They certainly won't spend the time/effort/money to research the issue completely.

3) The BATF will not seek to regulate sugar. However, they will say, "APCP will allow terrorists to launch rockets to aircraft altitudes. Someone is launching rockets in SE Texas at aircraft. If APCP were regulated again we could pull up a list of LEUPs in the area and start with them whereas now we have no way to track APCP users. Let us regulate APCP again so we can stop this."

As a legislator presented with this argument, how would you vote?

:2:

 

[billspad]

3) The BATF will not seek to regulate sugar. However, they will say, "APCP will allow terrorists to launch rockets to aircraft altitudes. Someone is launching rockets in SE Texas at aircraft. If APCP were regulated again we could pull up a list of LEUPs in the area and start with them whereas now we have no way to track APCP users. Let us regulate APCP again so we can stop this."

Except APCP was regulated when at least one of the incidents occurred and they still had their list of LEUP holders when the second occurred and it doesn't seem to have helped them in catching this guy.

 

[Mikus]

Except APCP was regulated when at least one of the incidents occurred and they still had their list of LEUP holders when the second occurred and it doesn't seem to have helped them in catching this guy.

True, but you're still assuming a legislator would know that. I'm doubting the ATF will mention it.

 

[Winston]

I considered the same thing but I'm thinking the fact that there was a similiar incident in the same area around the Memorial Day holiday last year (same timeframe) indicates it's somebody trying to outdo last year's effort.

I'm not familiar with the history of such events in that area, but if the previous events were in conjunction with holidays or a specific holiday, it sure sounds like someone is _intentionally_ trying to cause an incident, especially if the launch site moves in conjunction with the active runway being used at the time (due to wind direction). Were the suspected launch areas the same over the various incidents or did they move with the flight path?

 

[Winston]

Except APCP was regulated when at least one of the incidents occurred and they still had their list of LEUP holders when the second occurred and it doesn't seem to have helped them in catching this guy.

And, as a further point, it does not take a genius to make APCP grains and use them in commercially available hardware. If one is talking KNO3/sugar propellants in PVC-based hardware, it's probably even easier. I don't think this is something that could possibly be stopped by regulation.

And even assuming that some _JERKS_ who are also _CRIMINALS_ are intentionally launching at aircraft, the odds that they'll hit the aircraft or cause any real damage to one if they do are pretty minimal. However, I'm not trying to minimize the seriousness of this if it's true that someone is intentionally doing this and I hope they truly hang such _idiots_ out to dry if they catch them.

 

[Mikus]

I'm not familiar with the history of such events in that area, but if the previous events were in conjunction with holidays or a specific holiday, it sure sounds like someone is _intentionally_ trying to cause an incident, especially if the launch site moves in conjunction with the active runway being used at the time (due to wind direction). Were the suspected launch areas the same over the various incidents or did they move with the flight path?

Both were NE of Houston, and both around the Memorial Day holiday. The only real difference is this launch went 2x to 3x higher (I've seen both 11K and 16K as the reported altitude) and the pilot saw it close enough to describe it (assuming the pilot's description is correct).

The only official rocket clubs in Houston fly in SE Houston, Needville (way SW of Houston) and Hearne (even farther NW of Houston - more like College Station).

So it's either some rogue rocketeer or Booger's buddy is right and this isn't a rocket.

 

[billspad]

True, but you're still assuming a legislator would know that. I'm doubting the ATF will mention it.

That's what NAR and TRA are for.

I realize that legislators don't always do the right thing even when given all the evidence but for now I'm thinking positively.

 

[Zeus-cat]

The Embraer 145 is a 50-seat twin engine jet. Max speed is 518 mph, obviously not while climbing though.

 

[snaquin]

What I find interesting is the level of detail reported about the rocket when according to the email that Trip issued this event occurred at near sunset (8:09 PM). I only read the posts here. Am I missing something?

I do not argue that the event happened I just find it remarkable that it could be seen this clearly and also observed falling from altitude while observed on the ground within fifteen minutes or so of a night sky.

I need this guy who witnessed this to come and assist me with recovery at my next launch.



.

 

[georgegassaway]

I do not argue that the event happened I just find it remarkable that it could be seen this clearly and also observed falling from altitude while observed on the ground within fifteen minutes or so of a night sky.

Sunset is not the same thing as night sky. There is still plenty of light when the sun is setting, and more light still several minutes before sunset as the case here. Indeed, I have noted that for our night launches, it is not really “dark” (night sky) until about 30 minutes after sunset (unless the sky was overcast).

Also, in this case, the sky was “mostly cloudless”. So, the sky was mostly clear blue.

Another factor in that is that if the ground observer was more to the West than to the East, then he would have seen the sun shining in it lighting it up. One time I had a terrible time seeing an R/C Rocket Glider of mine on rocket boost, because it had black tissue on it, and the sky was dark blue. I got out a different model, one with pink foam wings. Launched it, the sun happened to be low on the horizon, behind me, and it lit up that wing like it was Pink NEON.

So, it would be easily possible for the sun near sunset to light up a rocket pretty well, depending on where it was viewed relative to the sunlight illumination or reflection. If the rocket tumbled or wobbled, it might also have been noticed at first from sun glinting off it if it had any glossy surface. And glinting like that could have been seen from a very wide range of viewing angles, not just West, but also East.

- George Gassaway

 

[DMcCauley]

What I find interesting is the level of detail reported about the rocket when according to the email that Trip issued this event occurred at near sunset (8:09 PM). I only read the posts here. Am I missing something?

I do not argue that the event happened I just find it remarkable that it could be seen this clearly and also observed falling from altitude while observed on the ground within fifteen minutes or so of a night sky.

I need this guy who witnessed this to come and assist me with recovery at my next launch.



.

8:09PM is not within 15 minutes of a dark sky. Astronomical twilight doesn't end for a couple of hours after that during the summer, and before then, the sky is relatively bright. In fact, it would probably be easier to see a smoke trail at this time (silouetted against a sky which was illuminated from below the horizon), then during the daytime. At least, that is my experience in watching rockets etc.. from Wallops Island.

 

[Chrisn]

This will be the end of construction workers driving vehicles at airports while aircraft are taking off as we know it
https://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/06/19/plane_vehicle_near_a_collision/

 

[user 13]

well maybe the end of cell phones as we know it! Reports locally are he was talking on his cell phone at the time. Add that to the subway accident up here last month, Driver was on his cell phone, and they are clearly a danger!

 

[CharlaineC]

I've had the cops called on me because I was a "terrorist shooting missiles at planes".

I agree I have had this happen more then once. and I fly low power to mid. nothing bigger. somepeople just have no lives.

as for the rocket and the plane thats alittle to close to an airport for a club launch is it not. also anyone who does fly hpr would have known that as well right?

 

[Mikus]

as for the rocket and the plane thats alittle to close to an airport for a club launch is it not.

Ahem.

Both were NE of Houston, and both around the Memorial Day holiday.

The only official rocket clubs in Houston fly in SE Houston, Needville (way SW of Houston) and Hearne (even farther NW of Houston - more like College Station).

 

[bobkrech]

What I find interesting is the level of detail reported about the rocket when according to the email that Trip issued this event occurred at near sunset (8:09 PM). I only read the posts here. Am I missing something?

I do not argue that the event happened I just find it remarkable that it could be seen this clearly and also observed falling from altitude while observed on the ground within fifteen minutes or so of a night sky.

I need this guy who witnessed this to come and assist me with recovery at my next launch.



.

The sunset on that date at that location was at 8:20 so the sun was still above the horizion. Furthermore the airplane was at 11,000' and the weather was clear.

I used "Starry Night" to simulate the visual conditions at 8:09 PM on the incident date at at 11,000' over the location of the incident. The darkest background was looking to the SE where you could just the Magnitude 0 stars, (the very brighest ones) because the sun was behind you and the sky was clear (not scattering sunlight back in your eyes). I'm assuming the airplane was heading E to NE so the pilots would not be looking into the sun, but anything in front of them would be well illumiinated by the sun that was just above the horizon. It would be fairly easy to see a light, well illuminated front lit object against a darkening background.

I'm guessing that while it might be hard to judge size and distance because the closing speeds would be in the 400'-500' per second range however the rocket would have to be almost directly in front of the airplane to stay in the pilots angular field of view to get such a good look.

Bob

Bob