New Motor Certified May 2019

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So 18+ L1 Certed authorizes the user ; and the standoff distance gives the spacing.

I haven't studied all the text(s) in detail but the way I now read it is " kids + CTI = no ", not "model pads + CTI = no"
That was more my question I guess. I have a L2 certification and a LPR launch site about 4 miles from my house that has a scheduled launch every month (LPR, G and below motor, no waiver, etc.). I have some Pro29 motors (G68) I'd love to use at the site but since the motors are HPR, does that mean I can't use them there and I have to go to the HPR site 40 miles away that launches only 4 times a year to use them? Until now I've used AT 29mm motors but when you have 2 dozen cub scouts cheering for another "really cool rocket launch", CTI turn-around times are appealing.
 
That was more my question I guess. I have a L2 certification and a LPR launch site about 4 miles from my house that has a scheduled launch every month (LPR, G and below motor, no waiver, etc.). I have some Pro29 motors (G68) I'd love to use at the site but since the motors are HPR, does that mean I can't use them there and I have to go to the HPR site 40 miles away that launches only 4 times a year to use them? Until now I've used AT 29mm motors but when you have 2 dozen cub scouts cheering for another "really cool rocket launch", CTI turn-around times are appealing.

Fly them from the LPR site. You don’t need a waiver. They are still Class 1 with FAA. Technically, you should follow the safe distance (100 feet for HPR A-G.)
 
Or the inclusion of CTI on the tarc list allows them to be used by school groups. Confusing ain't it
 
To lengthen the wrinkle, there's also tarc use of CTI motors (on the approved motor list for several years)


https://3384f12ld0l0tjlik1fcm68s-wp.../uploads/2018/08/2019-Approved-Motor-List.pdf

Aaaand there's the question I didn't want to ask. :) After thinking about it for a while, here's where I come down. The issue of students using CTI motors is a lot like a 7-year-old riding a bike. The manufacturer can tell you that the child should wear a helmet and should ride under adult supervision, but unless your municipality has laws that require both of those things, you're not required to follow those recommendations.
 
That is how I would interpret it also. I think it’s possibly a mistake on CTI’s part.

Certified motors come in two classes: model rocket motors and HPR motors. Model rocket motors come in two subclasses: those that anybody can use and those limited to ages 18 and above.
With the exception of sparkies I think most of CTI’s under H motors would fit in the model rocket motors with some for sale to adults only. I just don’t understand why they labeled them the way they did.
I just checked the actual labels on some CTI reloads and the one that are supposed to be marked High Power are labeled with an HP in front of the designation and none HP do not have that .
I am pretty sure it is a mistake on CTI part of not making 2 sets of instructions .
Just because its on the website does not make it law , or does it ?
 
There appear to be 55 non-sparky F motors:
ThrustCurve search

That doesn't exactly answer any of the questions, but it's at least it's a set of possibilities that may or may not work depending on other factors.
 
I just checked the actual labels on some CTI reloads and the one that are supposed to be marked High Power are labeled with an HP in front of the designation and none HP do not have that .
I am pretty sure it is a mistake on CTI part of not making 2 sets of instructions .
Just because its on the website does not make it law , or does it ?

Tim,
I think you’re probably right. I think that we should go by what the law says and the labels say rather than the website information.
 
Tim,
Can you get me pictures of the two different types of labels, those without the HP and those with?
Thanks! That was exactly the information I needed to decide how we need to handle it.
 
Years ago, when CTI first had their "model rocket" sized reloads Classified by the CSFM for sale in CA, they were all Classified as HPR motors. I asked them via e-mail and they responded that they were legally required to do so by the CA law.

This was the antiquated law which I will quote here:

California Health and Safety Code Section 12519

"Model rocket" means any toy or educational device which
weighs not more than 500 grams, including the engine and any payload,
that is propelled by model rocket engines.


California Health and Safety Code Section 12520


"Model rocket engine" means a commercially manufactured,
nonreusable rocket propulsion device which is constructed of a
nonmetallic casing and solid propellant, wherein all of the
ingredients are self-contained so as not to require mixing or
handling by the user and which have design and construction
characteristics determined by the State Fire Marshal to provide a
reasonable degree of safety to the user.

This was being ignored by the CSFM when they revised their regulations after the NFPA recognized reloadable motors. The plan was to get the law changed, but it was not a priroty of the CSFM. They Classified Aerotech RMS motors that met the NFPA standards as "Model Rocket Motors".

Then the Kosdon Incident occurred...and Frank insisted that the CSFM enforce the Health and Safety Code as written. The CSFM sent letters to manufacturers telling them that any future reloadable motor Classifications would need to be "High Power Rocket Motors" and that they would reclassify any motors that a manufacturer requested be reclassified from "Model Rocket Motor" to "High Power Rocket Motor" with no fee. (How nice of them....) Naturally, Aerotech never requested the reclassification of motors already classified.
It was years before Aerotech submitted any more RMS motors in the 'model rocket' NFPA definition to CSFM and when they did they were Classified as "High Power Rocket Motors".
This is one of the reasons there were no new reloads for the 24/60 casing for so many years.

CTI had all their motors Classified as "High Power Rocket Motors".

After we got the law changed (Jan 1, 2016), I asked CTI to request re-Classification as "Model Rocket Motors". They said they would get around to it, but the accident occurred and they had other priorities.

Aerotech did created new reloads for the 24/60 and those were Classified as "Model Rocket Motors".
https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/u...fae1740d5926_CSFM Modroc Approvals 2-4-19.pdf

Feel free to check with Aerotech and CTi to see if I got any of that wrong.
 
Years ago, when CTI first had their "model rocket" sized reloads Classified by the CSFM for sale in CA, they were all Classified as HPR motors. I asked them via e-mail and they responded that they were legally required to do so by the CA law.

This was the antiquated law which I will quote here:

California Health and Safety Code Section 12519

"Model rocket" means any toy or educational device which
weighs not more than 500 grams, including the engine and any payload,
that is propelled by model rocket engines.


California Health and Safety Code Section 12520


"Model rocket engine" means a commercially manufactured,
nonreusable rocket propulsion device which is constructed of a
nonmetallic casing and solid propellant, wherein all of the
ingredients are self-contained so as not to require mixing or
handling by the user and which have design and construction
characteristics determined by the State Fire Marshal to provide a
reasonable degree of safety to the user.

...

After we got the law changed (Jan 1, 2016), I asked CTI to request re-Classification as "Model Rocket Motors". They said they would get around to it, but the accident occurred and they had other priorities.

To make things really confusing in California, the handbook and exam for CalPyro-Rocketry have not been updated since 2011. The handbook still quotes that version of HSC 12519 and 12520. So t pass the test you study the "old" info, but are regulated to the new version of 12519 that says 1500 grams and 12520 that cites NFPA 1122 of 2013.
 
Fly them from the LPR site. You don’t need a waiver. They are still Class 1 with FAA. Technically, you should follow the safe distance (100 feet for HPR A-G.)

Studying for the L2 exam... If I read things right, I could launch the G72DM in a rocket less than 1500g at an LPR site as long as altitude stays under 2000 ft. It is a HPR by NFPA 1127 but Class 1 per FAA and therefore does not require an FAA HPR waiver. Right? I am >18 and L1 certified.

As some implied above, this would be a sweet bonus for the TARC team I supervise, assuming the landowner doesn't mind (and we have fire extinguishers, etc.).
 
NAR considers all sparkies HPR, so they're off-limits for TARC.

Yes, I don't mean for the TARC team to launch (TARC is limited to F impulse and members are under 18 so can't touch HPR motor).

I mean can I, as adult (L1 certified) supervisor, launch a <1500g rocket to <2000 ft with a motor <160 N-s and <125g propellant (FAA Class 1) on a sparky motor without an FAA waiver?

Several L2 exam study guide questions refer to this exception where the motor is HPR by NFPA 1127 but does not qualify as HPR under FAA regs. That's what I thought @Steve Shannon was referring to...

EDIT: The TARC reference was to mean "as a demonstration to the TARC team" who can attend their own launches but may not make the trip out to the Eastern Shore (MDRA).
 
Altitude is irrelevant. But yes, as long as 3.3 pounds total weight or less, 125 grams of propellant or less it's a go. Just need to file a NOTAM at closest airport. Can be done by phone
 
Altitude is irrelevant. But yes, as long as 3.3 pounds total weight or less, 125 grams of propellant or less it's a go. Just need to file a NOTAM at closest airport. Can be done by phone

Where is this required for a Class 1 rocket?
 
Just need to file a NOTAM at closest airport. Can be done by phone

Ah! That's a detail I missed. I'll stick with a G77R (the KIDS can launch that) and save the Dark Matter for the HPR field. Closest airport is BWI, not even gonna try! ;)

Thank you for helping to clarify this exception in the NAR L2 exam study guide -- I appreciate y'all allowing this tangent on the thread.

Really looking forward to the G72DM -- we're big fans of Dark Matter!
 
Ah! That's a detail I missed. I'll stick with a G77R (the KIDS can launch that) and save the Dark Matter for the HPR field. Closest airport is BWI, not even gonna try! ;)

Thank you for helping to clarify this exception in the NAR L2 exam study guide -- I appreciate y'all allowing this tangent on the thread.

Really looking forward to the G72DM -- we're big fans of Dark Matter!

You do not have to file a NOTAM for class 1 rockets. Before the changes in classifications that used to be the case. No longer applies.

§101.27 ATC notification for all launches.
No person may operate an unmanned rocket other than a Class 1—Model Rocket unless that person gives the following information to the FAA ATC facility nearest to the place of intended operation no less than 24 hours before and no more than three days before beginning the operation:
 
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Studying for the L2 exam... If I read things right, I could launch the G72DM in a rocket less than 1500g at an LPR site as long as altitude stays under 2000 ft. It is a HPR by NFPA 1127 but Class 1 per FAA and therefore does not require an FAA HPR waiver. Right? I am >18 and L1 certified.

As some implied above, this would be a sweet bonus for the TARC team I supervise, assuming the landowner doesn't mind (and we have fire extinguishers, etc.).

That is correct, as Rcknut answered FAA class 1 does not require a NOTAM or a COA.
I agree that your idea of a demo launch for a TARC team is a great way to stimulate interest.
 
Thanks for the clarifications! DM's -- sparkys in general -- are definitely stimulating! ;)
 
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