New Member Looking For Motor Help

[cj cake]

Hi everyone,

I am a new member here. I found this place while looking for rocket motors online. I flew model rockets decades ago as a youngster. Now I have three kids and this gives me the perfect excuse to get back into it. I recently purchased a couple kits online and I have been building them with my two oldest daughters. It has been a lot of fun. We are planning a family launch day sometime after Christmas, but I cannot seem to find the right motors anywhere!

We purchased two Estes kits, both are larger rockets (for Estes) and require 29m motors. I could not believe how inexpensive these kits were, so we sprang for the "big ones". Both kits were either on sale or on clearance. Well, maybe it is because these do not have motor available!

The first one was the
009716 - Pro Series II™ Star Orbiter™ - Estes Rockets

The second rocket was the
Estes Trajector Model Rocket Kit Pro Series II E2X #9709

Can anyone help us out by recommending a source for the correct motors? I have found a lot of "E" motors for sale, but these are the wrong diameter.

Thank you,
CJ

 

[Neutronium95]

The Estes 29mm motors are currently unavailable. That leaves you with two options; you can either adapt down or you can use motors from a different manufacturer. A motor adapter like this one will let you use Estes 24mm motors in your rockets. You could also use Aerotech single use motors instead of the Estes motors; I would suggest something like the Econojet F20 motors to start with. Either way, I'd suggest that you run the rocket through a simulator like Openrocket to verify that your selected motor will work before you boluy the motors.

 

[neil_w]

You could also use Aerotech single use motors instead of the Estes motors.

That would be my standard advice. The Trajector will fly just fine on an Aerotech E15/E20 (same motor, two different names) or an E30, probably 4 second delay. Just get the Estes 24->29mm adapters and you'll be all set to go. There's also an F44 that's very economical as well.

There are 29mm Aerotechs that are also good, but I'd start with the 24mm E motors, don't wanna lose it on the first flight.

The Star Orbiter will probably fly fine on an Estes D12 (again, with a 24mm-29mm adapter) or any of the motors mentioned above.

The Aerotech single-use motors are just as easy to use as the Estes motors, and run about $10 a pop. Just make sure you get the igniters all the way in, and that you have a good launch controller. I don't believe the standard Estes 4-AA controller will do it; the Estes Pro Series II controller should be OK.

Estes just announced on Twitter that their 29mm motors will be available again "in the spring". Until then, you'll be just fine with the alternatives.

 

[CPUTommy]

Recommend buying some single use motors and if you plan on flying flying i strongly recommend CTI motor casings and reloads.

The cti system allows you to reload the motor into the cti motor casing.

Build strong and remember.. going up is easy.. getting it back.. no so much.. lol

 

[teepot]

Balsa Machining is a great source for motors. His prices are going to be hard to beat. He probably has what your looking for.

 

[cj cake]

Thank you for the tips. I did not know there were so many "other" motors out there. Would you recommend I buy the Aerotech 29MM "hobby motor" case and use reloads? It looks like I can use it to make an E16, E23, F22, F40, F52. There are also G motors, but those are probably a bit much for these rockets.

I downloaded the Openrocket simulator, but is did not open with my windows computer. What app is needed to open it?

 

[Voyager1]

Thank you for the tips. I did not know there were so many "other" motors out there. Would you recommend I buy the Aerotech 29MM "hobby motor" case and use reloads? It looks like I can use it to make an E16, E23, F22, F40, F52. There are also G motors, but those are probably a bit much for these rockets.

I downloaded the Openrocket simulator, but is did not open with my windows computer. What app is needed to open it?

Have you installed Java 6 on your PC?
Check these instructions:
https://wiki.openrocket.info/Downloading_&_Installing

 

[neil_w]

Thank you for the tips. I did not know there were so many "other" motors out there. Would you recommend I buy the Aerotech 29MM "hobby motor" case and use reloads? It looks like I can use it to make an E16, E23, F22, F40, F52. There are also G motors, but those are probably a bit much for these rockets.

you can, but better to start with som single use motors before you get into reloads.

I downloaded the Openrocket simulator, but is did not open with my windows computer. What app is needed to open it?

Go here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...d-mac-to-solve-all-your-java-problems.143540/

 

[Bat-mite]

My kids each have a Trajector, and they fly great on Aerotech E20-7W. The 4-second delay version causes premature ejection.

 

[neil_w]

My kids each have a Trajector, and they fly great on Aerotech E20-7W. The 4-second delay version causes premature ejection.

Ah, good to know. I have an E15-7 that I haven't really known what to do with, since most of my rockets are too draggy for -7. I'll have to give it a try with my Trajector.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Congratulations on re-entering the hobby! I hope your girls enjoy it!

Lots of good advice above, and I agree with most of it. I’ll just second it and add my 2-cents.

The reason the Estes 29mm E and F motors are temporarily unavailable is because Estes is rebuilding or renovating their 29mm machines, so they will be coming back, but it could be awhile.

Until then, if you would like to stick with Estes black powder motors, you could use their 24/29 motor Adapter and Estes 24mm E12-4 motors. Those motors should be plenty to fly the Star Orbiter on a flight pretty similar to the Estes 29mm E16 you’ve been looking for. I think it should work fine in the Trajector too, but I’m not as sure on that due to it being a bit heavier and having more drag than the Star orbiter. Maybe someone who’s tried it can give feedback. The advantage to sticking with Estes is that you are familiar with it, and if you already have an Estes launch controller, it will light the Estes igniters.

The Aerotech single-use composite motors are your other good option, and you might actually find out you like them better anyways because of the variety of AP composite propellant types, flame colors, smoke densities, and motor speeds. Estes black powder is great, but it’s only one kind of propellant, so it burns pretty much the same way, no matter which size or type of Estes motor you are flying, but AP composite motors come in lots of different propellant types.

If you had been planning on flying these rockets on the Estes E16, the Aerotech E20 is going to be the composite motor that will give you the most similar altitude. You would need the same 24/29 adapter you would use for the Estes E12. Aerotech motors use a different kind of igniter than Estes motors, and they need more voltage and current than most Estes controllers can provide. My Estes E controller with 4 AA batteries would not do it. I think you need 12 volts. 9 might do it, but I would verify it with someone else. Another option is to buy a few packs of the Estes Pro Series II Sonic igniters. Those are the long igniters used for Estes-branded composite motors, not the short ones you are used to for black powder motors, and they will light with an Estes controller, and should light an Aerotech E20. I used to use those with my Estes controller and E20 motors, but they have changed those igniters a bit since then, and I’m not as sure about recommending them.

Personally, if I was in your position, those are the options I’d start with. Buy a couple of 24/29 adapters, a few packs of Estes E12-4 motors, and if you are feeling adventurous, get some Aerotech E20-7 motors and either a 12-volt controller or a few packs of Estes Sonic igniters for composite motors.

Those E20 motors will serve as your gateway drug to composite motors! If you fly these rockets on an E20 and you think you would be comfortable with them going at least twice as high, then you might want to start your journey down the rabbit hole and look at the Aerotech 29mm single use motors. F20 with white flame, white smoke, longer burn, goes high (my favorite single-use F motor). F23 with thick black smoke. F27 with red flame, light smoke. F42 with almost no flame or smoke, very loud and fast. Personally, I’d get bigger rockets for those Aerotech F motors, but they would work in your lighter rockets too (just really high flights that need a big recovery area and good eyesight). I prefer to keep my flights lower, so to me, these are for bigger rockets.

I think you are going to find there are lots of new and exciting types of rockets and motors than when you were a kid. Good luck, and enjoy!

 

[neil_w]

Here's a very quick work-up I did for the Trajector on Thrustcurve, including single-use motors at 24 and 29mm:


The E12 is a bit slow of the rod for my taste, given availability of good alternatives. Maybe OK on a very calm day.

Among the most cost-effective motors, E15W/E20W or E30T with 7 second delay would be good, or F44W with 8 second delay.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Here's a very quick work-up I did for the Trajector on Thrustcurve, including single-use motors at 24 and 29mm:
View attachment 443005

The E12 is a bit slow of the rod for my taste, given availability of good alternatives. Maybe OK on a very calm day.

Among the most cost-effective motors, E15W/E20W or E30T with 7 second delay would be good, or F44W with 8 second delay.

That’s a good work up.

I’m usually comfortable with speed off the rod being above 45 ft/s as long as conditions aren’t windy. I think Thrustcurve likes 50+. What is the guide length for those sims? Lots of home launch pads have short rods, so the speeds off the rod might be even lower.

The other rocket, the Star Orbiter, will go higher for sure. It’s lighter and has less drag. And an E12 should be plenty fast for that one.

EDIT: Forgot to add that I agree the E20/E15 are the most economical motors in the list with good speed off the rod and a reasonable altitude. 800 feet is a pretty good altitude. It’s kind of high for a schoolyard type flight. For that, I’d choose an E12. But 800 is not bad if it’s a larger setting. And I was surprised to see the other F motors did not go quite as high as I thought they might. If you have plenty of room, 1200 to 1500 feet is not out of the question — it’s higher than I like, but a lot of people would be fine with that. The Star Orbiter probably would go to the moon on those. Good chance of losing that one on an F, I think.

 

[neil_w]

I’m usually comfortable with speed off the rod being above 45 ft/s as long as conditions aren’t windy. I think Thrustcurve likes 50+. What is the guide length for those sims? Lots of home launch pads have short rods, so the speeds off the rod might be even lower.

I used 6', which is what I would normally assume for a 1/4" rod. We don't know what the OP has as far as launch pads and such.

The other rocket, the Star Orbiter, will go higher for sure. It’s lighter and has less drag. And an E12 should be plenty fast for that one.

Could probably even do first flight on a D12-3 for that one. But yeah, an E12 would be fine and dandy in the Star Orbiter. I don't know it's mass off the top of my head, but I would assume quite a bit lighter than the Trajector, which tips the scales at just under 11 oz (I weighed mine. )

 

[Handeman]

I'm not sure where you are at with comfort level on assembling reloadable motors, but the first thing I did when I got back into rockets was by and Aerotech 29/40-120 motor case and reloads. That was in 2003 and I'm still using the motor case. I can't count how many reloads I've flown through it, but I'm sure its +100 by now.

The Aerotech Hobbyline 24/40 case is also a workhorse case.

Single use motors are easy to use, but once the reloads are assembled, they work the same as the single use. The reloads are cheaper than single use so if you intend to launch often they are well worth the cost of the cases.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

One other thing to consider about Estes black powder motors versus the Aerotech single-use E and F motors discussed in this thread so far is that any Estes black powder motor over an E (E9, E12, E16, F15) requires an additional hazmat fee for shipping, which can really add a lot to the cost per motor, unless you place a BIG order to spread it out a bit. I think it’s now up to around $37 per order (charged per shipping box, not per motor or motor package). But the Aerotech single-use motors that have been mentioned so far (E15/E20, E30, F20, F23, F27, F42, F44, F67) don’t a need hazmat shipping fee, so depending on how many motors you are ordering, the composites can actually save you money, even when the motor price is higher for composites.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

If you live in a desert, be prepared to walk a mile to retrieve if you can find it.

 

[beeblebrox]

Also, check around your area for clubs that have regular launches. You will find out more in an hour by looking at other peoples stuff that you can imagine. Also you will most likely get to see some big rockets fly with large motors too. These type of launches will have an FAA waiver filed so that high power can be flown. Note: Your star Orbiter is a little larger than an Estes E2X rocket that I have, It was too heavy for the recommended Estes motors anyway. It flew great on G-Motors. (Last Flight - G146-12) Next flight I plan to use an H180...

Make sure that you glue those fins together well. Don't use CA, I have seen those type of fins split apart. They are made of styrene. The best possible glue for those is liquid plastic cement. Use epoxy for the centering rings on the motor tube, but glue all plastic parts with this stuff.

https://www.megahobby.com/products/styrene-tack-it-ii-plastic-welder-1oz-bottle.html

 

[cj cake]

Wow, all great advice. Thank you.

I was able to buy a pack of 24mm Estes E12 motors from Hobby Lobby for the Star Orbiter. I have a 24mm to 29mm adapter on its way through from an online vender. So I think we are in a good place for that rocket.

The more I look into the Aerotech composite motors, the more I like the options. I decided to order a couple F20s for the Trajector, but I also ordered a RMS 29mm case. I think the option of loading your own motors from kits is appealing and just another activity I can share with my girls.

neil_w, that spreadsheet is incredibly useful. I printed it and it is now a reference chart I am going to keep in my Rocket Box. Thanks for taking the time to post that information. And I have a 72" launch rod, it is just pushed into a hole drilled into a sawhorse. It is not that pretty, but it should work for now. I just need to add a blast shield and it should be ready. The launch controller isn't really a launch controller. It is a deep cycle 12V battery and a couple wires.Bbut I might look into getting a rail to launch from and a dedicated launch box.

Handeman, I think I will also order a 24mm RMS case for additional lower powered reloads since I will have the adapter soon. Good suggestion!


ThirstyBarbarian, you are right about the HazMat fees, I am doing my best to avoid those charges if I can. That is why the RMS reloads are so appealing to me, you get more bang for your buck and avoid fees.

I am going to launch from the dirt field behind the house. It is 600ft. x 600ft. I have access to a much larger plot just down the road. It is 80 acres square. The grapes were recently removed and it is just a dirt lot also. I have plenty of room if I need it.

 

[Handeman]

Which "RMS 29mm case" did you order. I hope the HobbyLine 29/40-120 and not the RMS 29/120 high power case. Not that you can't use that case, but you have much more variety in reloads with the HobbyLine. The two are not interchangeable or compatible.

 

[Nytrunner]

that spreadsheet is incredibly useful. I printed it and it is now a reference chart I am going to keep in my Rocket Box. Thanks for taking the time to post that information.

Also, you can generate your own using thrustcurve.org. enter your rocket weight, diameter, motor mount size, and it'll spit out the same graphs (log in to set your own preferences and save rockets)

 

[cj cake]

Yes it was the hobby line case.

 

[tsmith1315]

I am going to launch from the dirt field behind the house. It is 600ft. x 600ft. I have access to a much larger plot just down the road. It is 80 acres square. The grapes were recently removed and it is just a dirt lot also. I have plenty of room if I need it.

Beautiful! You'll be able to make good use of that 29mm system. Build that Star Orbiter well and it will fly well on most any 29/40-120 reload, but the bigger ones will turn it into a teensy speck.

If there is a club that launches anywhere nearby, I highly recommend the experience. It's worth a trip, and you'll find flying at home more exciting after the exposure. However, be warned: you will suddenly spend a lot more money on rockets.

You said you flew rockets decades ago, you're in good company here. Do you have any survivers from back then?

 

[jrap330]

While I will not go against advice given, I say you made a mistake. You fell in love with adult attitude of BIG is great. If you want to introduce your girls to the hobby, you should have purchase a beginner's set. Learn to fly on A, B and C motors going larger after a few builds to D motors. You could fly as inexpensive as $2.00 per lunch while giving your girls the capability to built the rocket since White or Yellow glue is all you need. No Pro controller or Pro-Type lunch pad. Make a PVC pad or buy one. And if your lose a $10 rocket, so what, you built another. The problem with this group is most members are mid and Hi Power flyers and they forget you should start small and slowly go large. I became a BAR 20 years ago, took the past 7 years off and still have not gone to composite motors. Don't forget you need the field size to recover the bigger kits.

 

[neil_w]

I became a BAR 20 years ago, took the past 7 years off and still have not gone to composite motors.

I take exception here. There is nothing inherently problematic or scary about composite motors, and there is no reason to avoid them, *especially* if you fly with a club. Heck, the Q-Jets are composites, and they exist in the same LPR domain as Estes A B and C motors.

The key is simply to match the motor (be it BP or composite) to the rocket to the field.

That said, I do agree with your general point that starting smaller with something like a launch set is the best way to go, especially when dealing with kids, for all the reasons you gave.

 

[jrap330]

Yes, Neil I believe in starting at square one (i.e good engineering practice), and Estes provides starter sets that hopefully ignite their engines with their Electron Beam Controller. Simple kits for young kids to build. There is the age restriction for mid to high power motors, no? It is just this is the 3rd post this year, an aduilt male stated I want to get into the hobby and go straight to mid or high power. Not to mention the cost per lunch for F-G_H motors. My Estes A/B/C from my 20 year bulk pack cost $1.35 per launch, great bang for buck for young kids.

 

[neil_w]

There is the age restriction for mid to high power motors, no? It is just this is the 3rd post this year, an aduilt male stated I want to get into the hobby and go straight to mid or high power. Not to mention the cost per lunch for F-G_H motors. My Estes A/B/C from my 20 year bulk pack cost $1.35 per launch, great bang for buck for young kids.

Composite does not necessarily imply mid- or high-power. Composite motors are available (in Q-Jet form) starting from A and going up to... well as high as you want. They are as easy to use as BP motors, but available in a far wider variety, with higher thrust options that are especially good for heavy models.

As I said, I completely agree with the recommendation to start small. But there's no specific reason to avoid composite motors, regardless of what impulse level you fly at (if you've gone 7 years without trying one, you really should... variety is nice).

Having said that, and thought for another moment, I think I might not recommend Q-Jets right at the beginning, just because igniter insertion is a bit trickier than with the BP motors. On the other hand, when properly inserted, the igniters are extremely reliable, and quicker to fire than the current Estes starters.

 

[tsmith1315]

The problem with this group is most members are mid and Hi Power flyers and they forget you should start small and slowly go large.

Don't sell us short, surely we have way more problems than that!

But, the OP already has experience with low-power rockets. And he's starting with Estes kits. Going to 29mm isn't a big step.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Don't sell us short, surely we have way more problems than that!

But, the OP already has experience with low-power rockets. And he's starting with Estes kits. Going to 29mm isn't a big step.

I assume that the OP already knows what he’s doing (which wasn’t exactly clear in his post) or foolish enough to learn the hard way that launching a $100+ rocket and not finding it is a valuable lesson.

 

[tsmith1315]

Indeed, you learn to be aware there are times a single-use motor is a better idea than a reloadable.