New Estes starters and Black Powder Cluster ignition

[BABAR]

i am running out of my Quest igniters and my stash of old Estes pyrogens igniters.

Anybody having any luck with clusters using the pyrogens free current Estes Starters?

Things I am already planning

12v system (Pratt Go Box). Runs $45
https://www.pratt-hobbies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GO-12
I really like this system
I have this with the cigarette lighter adapter . I can run this through my car window to the controller, with another 25’ cable to my pad. But I usually plug it into the cigarette lighter slot of my Stanley FatMax jump starter. (Not pluggin Walmart, but details here: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Stanley-FatMax-700-Amp-Peak-Jump-Starter-with-Compressor-J7CS/38243753)
The combo of the Go Box and the jump starter with the cigarette plug adapter makes for a really portable safe system. I like the cigarette plug better than the batter clamps.


I follow der MicroMeister’s advice of inserting igniter all the way to the propellant and using a plug of wadding instead of the Estes plastic plugs.

I have NOT been prescraping the propellant through the nozzle (anybody know if that helps?)
Anyway any others’ experience or tips welcome.

Tom

 

[DeltaVee]

I launched my Astron Scrambler last summer on three B6-4's on the rather chintzy looking Estes igniters (no, I don't really like them) and the result was just fine... as you can see below, all three lit. I *usually* don't have a problem with them but frankly I feel the old black tipped igniters (I hate the word "starter") were a bit more reliable. I used the plugs for this launch as well. In the original vid on a frame-by-frame view, you can see the plugs rebounding off of the deflector. Using wadding is certainly more eco-friendly... I should switch to wadding...

 

[blackjack2564]

Use E-matches, very reliable & low current. I have used them on A through E's.
11 inch leads make connecting a breeze.

 

[DeltaVee]

Use E-matches, very reliable & low current. I have used them on A through E's.
11 inch leads make connecting a breeze.

View attachment 372938 View attachment 372939 View attachment 372940 View attachment 372941

Hmmm... 100 of those things go for about $34 on e-bay. Estes charges a bit more than 34 cents/shot I think (like list price is a$1.00/per igniter). However the igniters do come with the motors and I've never had a serious problem. Even the Estes original igniters will fail if the pyrogen isn't touching the propellant. I don't really think that the new igniters are all that unreliable... As I don't see e-matches for sale on amazon, I'm wondering about the shipping issues of e-matches... apparently does not require hazmat (can be shipped usps ground). Here is a source that charges $0.60/unit:
https://electricmatch.com/pyrotechnics/see/6/5/mjg-firewire-initiator

BTW the Scrambler launch was the first cluster shot I've done in over 30 years... I *used* to rely on the old coated nichrome wire igniters.

 

[BABAR]

Use E-matches, very reliable & low current. I have used them on A through E's.
11 inch leads make connecting a breeze.

View attachment 372938 View attachment 372939 View attachment 372940 View attachment 372941

The ones I have look like yours, but I can’t get them into the nozzles of B and C motors

 

[Bat-mite]

Get some Fabri-Tac glue and glue a little BP to your Estes starters. Much more reliable.

 

[blackjack2564]

The ones I have look like yours, but I can’t get them into the nozzles of B and C motors

Looking at the picture, you will see the one on right is much smaller head. fit right in,had to order that specific tiny size by the 10,000. Enough BP fliers liked/used them sold all . Largest cluster I saw was 9. [3-d] 3-c [ 3-A]

Bottom pic was A. These you placed sideways ,they work fine.
Things have changed a lot since I was buying direct from manufacturer.[6 yrs ago] Now they sell on Flea Bay in many size quantities. You could probably inquire for a smaller size head and get a few hundred. Probably .17-.20 cents @ Do a group buy.

 

[BDB]

I use the cheap e-matches from Ebay for 29 mm BP motors, but you are right, they don't fit in anything smaller. I have had good luck just taping the e-match to the bottom of a D12, but that might not be reliable enough for a cluster.

These BP starters from MJG worked great for lighting my 3-motor and 5-motor clusters last month. They seem pretty similar to the now-obsolete G2G2s.

 

[neil_w]

These BP starters from MJG worked great for lighting my 3-motor and 5-motor clusters last month. They seem pretty similar to the now-obsolete G2G2s.

Price isn't bad either. I'll probably order some of those after I work through my stash of old Estes black-tipped igniters.

 

[hcmbanjo]

Get some Fabri-Tac glue and glue a little BP to your Estes starters. Much more reliable.

https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/upgrading-estes-starter-igniters-part-1.html
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/upgrading-estes-starter-igniters-part-2.html
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/estes-starter-igniter-upgrade-update.html

 

[BABAR]

https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/upgrading-estes-starter-igniters-part-1.html
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/upgrading-estes-starter-igniters-part-2.html
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/estes-starter-igniter-upgrade-update.html

I saw the blog on this Chris.
I have to find a place that sells the powder.
Funny when I look online at Dick’s sporting goods apparently I can buy a 50 caliber hollowpoint bullet but I can’t get black powder.

 

[DaveW6DPS]

Funny when I look online at Dick’s sporting goods apparently I can buy a 50 caliber hollowpoint bullet but I can’t get black powder.

For this application, pyrodex or other substitutes work as well. I don't use them for ejection charges, but for lighting motors it can help.

 

[Bat-mite]

I saw the blog on this Chris.
I have to find a place that sells the powder.
Funny when I look online at Dick’s sporting goods apparently I can buy a 50 caliber hollowpoint bullet but I can’t get black powder.

Finding BP is tough, especially depending on where you live. Fortunately, I have a small mom and pop gunshop within 20 miles of my house.

You may have to do an Internet search for gun shops near you, then call each one until you find one that carries BP. It is really only good for muzzle loading weapons, which, of course, are not very popular. Dick's, Bass Pro, and Wal-Mart just don't carry it.

You can buy online, but often you need to get a large quantity and pay HAZMAT.

If you are a club member, ask around where people get it. They may be doing a group-buy to defray costs.

 

[DeltaVee]

So in regard to the originally posted question, I'm wondering who out there is having trouble getting their Estes motors going with the newer igniters? I personally have not had a great deal of trouble with them. They don't seem to be problematic so long as the igniter is touching the propellant, and that is pretty much how it's always been even with pyrogen coated ones as far as I can tell. Anyone having a big problem out there?

 

[neil_w]

I've had almost 100% success (actually I can't recall any failures, so maybe 100%). But I haven't tried clusters.

 

[BABAR]

So in regard to the originally posted question, I'm wondering who out there is having trouble getting their Estes motors going with the newer igniters? I personally have not had a great deal of trouble with them. They don't seem to be problematic so long as the igniter is touching the propellant, and that is pretty much how it's always been even with pyrogen coated ones as far as I can tell. Anyone having a big problem out there?

They haven’t worked as well for me. I can’t however give any specific data, and I haven’t done a side by side comparison. It is possible they just look “different” and so I am suspicious.

I have a 2 engine cluster rocket that is safe for flight whether both motors or just one motor lights, maybe I will experiment a bit more. The one rule I have always gone by is to use a 12v battery when using more than starter.

 

[dhbarr]

I had trouble with generic / low batteries.

Switched to Energizer Ultimate ( LiFeS2 ), or 14500's, or wiring in a 7ah 12v SLA...

Some of my Scouts had trouble when they poked the button, but press-and-hold works great.

To sum up: good batteries, good contact with propellant, press-and-hold.

 

[BABAR]

I had trouble with generic / low batteries.

Switched to Energizer Ultimate ( LiFeS2 ), or 14500's, or wiring in a 7ah 12v SLA...

Some of my Scouts had trouble when they poked the button, but press-and-hold works great.

To sum up: good batteries, good contact with propellant, press-and-hold.

John (der MicroMeister, recently passed away) always said “don’t use the plastic plugs, use a rolled up piece of wadding shoved up the nozzle.” To get good contact. I am sure he put it more elegantly.

 

[DeltaVee]

John (der MicroMeister, recently passed away) always said “don’t use the plastic plugs, use a rolled up piece of wadding shoved up the nozzle.” To get good contact. I am sure he put it more elegantly.

Better for the environment, too I would think.

 

[Nytrunner]

When the pyrogen was removed, I initially had trouble. On further thought and practice, this is because I was used to just pressing the button and having them zoom off immediately. As soon as I learned that the button needed to be held with the new ones, I haven't had a problem. Never had a problem with the plastic plugs either.